Jamming with Jason E39: Lessons from a Chief Audit Executive (CAE) with Imran Zia

In this week’s episode I speak with Imran Zia about lessons he learned from being a CAE. We discuss how management wants to see internal audit as a partner and trusted advisor. How integrity, courage, likability and trust help you get to that status. We also discuss how to become the CEO of your own career development and that by spending time learning you business and industry is one of the biggest things you can do to earn the trust of management.

Imran Zia is the Chief Audit Executive (CAE) for the Government of British Columbia in Canada.

Transcript:

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Welcome everybody to another episode of Jamming with Jason. We get to do another one of my favorite kinds of episodes today, which is talking to other chief audit executives. So today I have on my friend Imran Zia so welcome Imran. How are you today?

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Hey, yes. And I am good how are you?

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Good. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s always funny. The older I get,

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To go

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You know, because I think we first met back in Qatar.

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Yeah, long time ago. That’s why I was trying to remember exactly how many years it’s been at least probably six, six or seven years. I’m guessing.

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Yeah, don’t, don’t even more, maybe eight years, I believe.

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Yeah, it could even be that long right so so yeah cuz you were in one of my risk based audit courses that I was doing over there in the Middle East and we met kind of hit it off and it’s it’s been fun to actually watch your journey as well, right, because you’re no longer in Qatar.

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In the Middle East, right, you’re in

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Canada.

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Yeah. And, and so it’s kind of fun. So just, just, you know, right now, you’re the chief executive of the government of British Columbia. So for those outside, you know, North American that’s that’s like a big state province.

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Big governments, big, big budgeted government. It’s one of the the large, I want to say it’s probably one of the largest yes second largest province in Canada. After the right so so we’re talking, you know, big responsibilities here.

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But maybe you know just start us off with just kind of give people a little background as to, like, you know, how do you get to be a chief audit executive, you know, because like I said, I mean, you’ve literally moved around the world.

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But, but what’s kind of the process that you know, got you to where you’re at today.

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Yeah, I mean, I’ll just quickly go through what I’ve been doing in the past, and it was lovely to get in touch with you, those many years ago. And it’s interesting that we have been in touch throughout and in all

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And it was a, I would say, from a career wise, it’s a roller coaster ride and, you know,

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And and it’s and it’s great. I really, I’m really thankful to you, Jason. And I’ve been

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Getting a lot of career advice and tips from you and also about different certifications and knowledge and that has really helped me throughout my journey so

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I started off with a professional services firm.

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KPMG started off at RSM KPMG in Dubai and then moved on to take an audit manager role with an oil and gas sector company in the Middle East in Qatar and that’s where we met as well. And five years into an audit manager all moved on to Chief audit executive

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And it was about 10 years span with an oil and gas sector company and a lot of interesting insights that a lot from a professional perspective as well so

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From a professional background.

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I started off as an ACC. Am I did my ACC. A typical accounting background and

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More gone to RSM but my basic article shape and then to KPMG

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But I always thought that you know it’s it’s you’ll gain something you attain some knowledge and it’s kind of never ending journey. It’s about lifelong learning and

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The higher you move in your carrier, you start to realize the knowledge that you have a just so little and you know it and you and you get to have that feeling, you know, you move on from one industry to another and you realize that you there’s a lot that you need to learn

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And so I took the charge of I became the CEO of my own career development. Yeah, so

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I love that term. You seem to have your own career.

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Oh yeah so I assume the responsibility that no one else you know would would ask me to do that. So I have to take this on myself so

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I, I started my internal audit journey when I joined an oil and gas sector company in 2008 and then as an intern or IT manager and

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I felt. What are those things that I should do to be a factor auditor. So first thing was to learn more and more about business so

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Oil and gas sector come it’s it’s a complicated business is not a typical straightforward trading or something else. It was I was into oil and gas drilling.

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So a lot of business related information that I wanted to learn because what I’ve felt if you really want to deliver that value that we talked about always internal or profession. First thing that you should do is to learn about the business.

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I have seen auditors having those audit meetings coming out of those audit meetings and you know after that people in the room talking about, hey, this guy came to audit us and he hardly knows anything about our business.

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I think that’s a discussion.

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Most be I have afterwards, right, which is

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Afterwards, I’ve, I have been into those facilitating sessions where one of our parent company wanted to order it us as a shareholder on it.

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And they hide a big for professional services from to do a shareholder or it of our company.

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And with all my sympathies with that auditor, who was a chartered accountant and with that professional services firm with quite some time.

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But unfortunately he didn’t have a clue about how oil and gas drilling business works. So based on the risk assessment. They wanted to order a technical maintenance and the first year.

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Is not your biggest risk in a drilling company. Yeah.

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And and you can imagine the first meeting kickoff audit kickoff meeting. I have a chief audit executive, you know, I’ve been tasked to do to act as a focal point between the shareholder auditors coming from one of the big four firms and

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We’re process owners within that company and the kickoff meeting starts and there’s a list of items that the person is asking

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And I’ve got head of maintenance sitting and you know I’ve got head of engineering sitting in that meeting and myself. And, you know,

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There is a dialogue going on, and people are trying to explain their work that they’re doing. And after that meeting and I scored the person back to the

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Main reception, where he says, Okay, I’ve completed my kickoff meeting. So I’ll give you an update as to when we

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Have to start our field work so well. Thank you very much. And then I went back to the meeting room to sit with my folks and it says

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You know what, sir, what you know this guy. He’s coming to audit us, but he knows nothing about technical maintenance. He knows nothing about oil and gas drilling business. So how do you expect this person to come up the value idea to come up or suggest something to improve a business process.

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And then I said, Yeah, this is a valid feedback and, you know,

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And I will communicate it to the higher ups within the firm and that, see if they can bring in some oil and gas so

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That was just a sort of a thing. So when I joined the firm my number one priority was to understand the business itself. So you can talk to them in their own language.

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So rather than going on to those accounting and auditing courses. I wanted to go for an oil and gas drilling course. I actually attended out full one week course eight hours a day.

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A lot of stuff just went over my head, but there were quite some information that I could understand so that I had those systems and technologies and those terminologies that you know

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I can discuss with them, talk to them. So, so when I when I talked to them. I’m not conceived as an alien and you know somebody who who has little to no knowledge about the business and he’s into Autodesk so

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That’s how I did and apart from those courses continue to work with those guys to better understand the business and, on the other hand, I also worked on my professional

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Qualifications I went on to do CIA

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Then certified information systems auditor Certified Fraud examiner. Then I also acquired certificate and risk management so intended

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Master’s degree in audit management and consultancy from Birmingham university. So I felt that I need to have that grounding and that information from an audit and control perspective so that you know

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When I go and ordered i i have a good broader perspective of all different dimensions. And I think that was precisely one of the important factors, apart from

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Very good understanding of the business that helped me to be picked up as the CEO. So now when you’re in those management meetings, you know,

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Sitting as an auditor or C D management looks towards you, from an insight from a business perspective, not from an audit perspective. They don’t want you to

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Tell okay you know if there is that control weakness, which is fine. That comes as a standard product of audit. But what they want to see as, how are you adding value towards business. So when I assume the role of, CAE.

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I realized that it’s great to have that audit and accounting knowledge and then it’s very important to have that knowledge about the business.

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But it’s even more important to have that relationship built with the CEOs and board of directors and audit committee and when you operate at that level. It’s a very different ballgame.

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There’s good, you’re good. Technically you have that business knowledge, but then at that will you need to bring that business lens to your discussion, you know, and if you don’t have, if you have, they don’t have that business lens coming into your discussion that’s, that’s, you know,

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I really, I would say it’s a setback to an order function and I feel, you know, managing reputation of internal audit function at that level becomes very critical.

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And you are the person as CEO representing the whole audit function and

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People look at you as a face of audit. And I think the most significant non financial cost, maybe the negative reputation of internal or function to our dog organization and

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We should invest heavily in relationship building with all key stakeholders and you know studies indicate that if an auditor is likable and delivers a very organized argument.

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managers tend to comply with the suggestions, even if they disagree and auditor lack supporting evidence. So I’m not saying

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That you know you shouldn’t have that concrete evidence of work that you’re doing but relationship plays a lot in terms of getting the internal audit function.

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Going, you know, it’s evident that maintaining a likeable personality and establishing a good relationship with key stakeholders does help and download a great deal and and it’s not something you know

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That

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As an auditor. You can’t develop too many people come to the belief that being likable comes from natural unteachable trades that belong only two lucky few or good looking, or some very, very social and incredibly talented.

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It’s easy to fall prey to this misconception, you know, but when you actually look into the qualities that general likable people have about these are like

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approachability humility positivity. You know, we see all these traits are the ones which anyone can develop and we must focus on developing those traits as these are important prerequisite of increasing and Dan Norris influence and persuade others are sort of business. So, yeah.

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Well,

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You just gave us a whole bunch of stuff.

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So I need to probably timeout timeout, a little bit because because actually, there were quite a few points that you brought up there that I think that I think are important.

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To maybe summarize again so that people don’t don’t miss them the first time. Right, and I think, like you said, you know, building the relationships is something that is very key.

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And being likable is is the first part of that. So it’s interesting that use that that word, too, because I was talking with one of my other friends whose

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Uncle is like this. Uber successful salesperson, and he always told her, I said, Cathy, you know that selling is easy. Here, here’s all it is right.

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If people like you, they will see you I didn’t they trust you, they will buy from you. And so it’s like okay let’s analogies that back to internal audit, right, hey, if people like you.

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Then they’re going to see you. Hey, Mr. On I see you, you’re kind of cool. I like you. Right. And then if they trust you, then they’re gonna want you to help them. Right.

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And of course, there’s a whole bunch of stuff behind what that means but but i think you know you bring up that point of

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Sometimes people are afraid and think, oh, you know, to be likable. It’s like some natural born thing no can learn these things.

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But the other thing that I’ve that I’ve seen some auditors due to his well I can’t be too likable. I can’t be too friendly. Because if I am than I am impair my independence.

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Oh, yeah.

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Your objectivity and it’s

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Like, no.

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That’s not the case either right

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That you can be that and still, you know, have the objectivity to do the job. You need to do

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No, I agree with you. Hundred percent I think it’s an important perspective being likable and having to have that great relationship with your peers and with your higher ups.

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Does not mean that you would compromise on your independence and here comes another factor when you talk about likability is integrity and courage, so

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These things go hand in hand. And if you know somebody I would I would tell you a very interesting comment which was made by our Chief Operating Officer about me, in particular, you know, there was an investigation that I had to take over. And it was coming right from the top.

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That, hey, Mr, CAE. We have come across this issue. Can you please investigate and come up with your findings.

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And nobody likes a guy that has to

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Investigate right

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Yes, it’s it’s it’s a tough one to be but still you maintain that sort of. So one of the

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relevant parties, a person approaches CEO and says, Doc, you know, Iran is very close to that person ABC and this may influence his investigation and his findings.

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And see or response to him and I like this one, it says, he says well in ron is everybody’s friend and he is nobody’s friend.

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Yeah, I wouldn’t think that’s a compliment, but that’s

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A very good company.

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For another right

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Yeah, so I fed this really conveys the message you know you have a very good relationship with going with everyone. But when it comes to integrity and when it comes to

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Reporting the fact you don’t bring that to your work. You don’t say, you know,

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You know, whatever. I work very closely with A, B and C. So I should tweak something. No, it doesn’t work like that. I’ve also been into those situations where it’s an investigation sort of work that I’m doing. And somebody from sea level. I won’t say see you are but

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comes and talks to you in general. Hey man, how’s that going, Yeah, I’m working on that. I’m in middle of something. And once I have some a clear idea as to where we’re heading. I’ll give you an update on that.

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And, you know, you’ll get an indication from somebody that you know he wants to see the result of that investigation in a certain fashion.

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Not directly, but indirectly, you know what

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I think, you know, that person is really guilty of this, this and this and he should face this sort of disciplinary action. And I will say, yeah. Well, you’re right. But we are still in the middle of something and I will let you know.

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And this is I would consider it as an attempt to influence that is a lot. On the other hand, what happens when the report goes out.

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And those people. They see there is not even a single element of what they want to see in that report, you know,

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And it is just based on the facts and the policies and based on the regulations. They even respect you more. Although during although during the

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Course of work they wanted to see a certain set of outcome. Although the outcome was not exactly what they wanted to see, but it was very objective and very much based on

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Integrity of a person. There’s really start to appreciate the fact as an auditor that and really appreciate that. Okay. You are an auditor and

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You’re the one who maintain your integrity, irrespective of whoever in whatever position wants to, you know, influence, so yes. Both these things go hand in hand. You’re likable, your friend of everybody. When it comes to black and white. It is black and white.

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Well, and I think, like you said, that’s, that’s an important trait. The chief executive has to have, they have to have integrity, but they have to have courage to write because I know you know sometimes it does take courage to

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deliver a message that may be some people might not like, Yeah, but you know, again, if we if we do our job right. We’re not you know

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Putting judgment on it, if you will, it’s just our job to report the facts. Right. And so, like you said, without investigation.

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You know, yeah, some of the executives might have hoped it would turn out a certain way because maybe they wanted to take certain disciplinary actions at the end of the day, it’s like, no, we didn’t find anything. Sorry, but

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You know you didn’t want it is

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It is what it is. So, you know, you can’t you can’t use it that way but but sometimes it does take a lot of courage, and I think that’s one of the things you know I noticed when I became a chief executive, sometimes

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You have to step up, you know, big time like that. And sometimes you’re a little nervous, you know, at doing it. But again, you just have to deliver the message and then you deal with the fallout.

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Oh, absolutely. I think it just an English and the short term, you might feel that it’s at stuff going with that sort of situation.

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But in the long run as a CEO, you will earn a reputation, where people would say,

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You know you can’t really influence this person, you can get you know what you want it, it would be reported what it is. And that’s how you start building that element of trust even more, you know, you start to get more reliance on your work from sea level and from audit committee as well.

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And that goes a long way and

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Other perspective is

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Bringing that value to the table. So we as an auditor work as an independent sort of

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Body within an organization which is all good and we report on that assurance.

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But, you know, somehow we are part of that business as well in your meetings and in your business to see and making

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CEO and it’s, it’s an interesting you know dial AMA where the management and CEO would want you to help them and running the business. And while

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Somehow Audit Committee and Board would want you to see as you know distance yourself from anything that is happening within the management world and just be very independent. It’s a very delicate balance that you know somehow that you need to maintain

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My to bring that real value unique to talk business and

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I have seen

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Organizations where or it has real good inside of the business, you know, CEOs have really turned to the audit and say, hey, this is what everybody’s saying

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On a certain business decision. What is your take on that and you know to be there.

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It’s a long journey. It doesn’t happen overnight, but it’s it’s really about, you know, when you see your success as the success of management, if

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I am the CEO of an organization and an organization implements a system with insufficient controls or with with a lot of control weaknesses.

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I see as a failure of Chief audit executive on this reflects on me as well when I had the opportunity to highlight that right at the beginning of this thing happening.

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I didn’t do that. Or maybe I was not able to convince the management to do it in a different way. So we do it first at the first time you know there is no point

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Or maybe there is a little value and just highlighting and something that has already gone wrong, rather than

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Highlighting that right at the time when it’s happening. You know, so it’s a lot about, you know, that’s why the focus is shifting from that typical orange two words real time missions and I see that executives and board members really see that value.

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In that sort of real real time assurance, where they want audit function to be involved when the initiatives are actually going on.

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For example, if we were running a huge project and see you actually said him run. I don’t want you to tell me at the end of the project that you know

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One, two, and three has gone wrong.

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During and so I can do so.

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Yeah, tell me right now. Get involved right away, you know, and you know, tell me how it works. So we then work.

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Sort of model more on materiality based as to what

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To what extent and unloaded can get involved in those sort of initiatives, keeping in view that independence thing as well. And what sort of value, we can add and

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That that I believe we could really deliver a lot of value and then

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audit function was involved in almost every strategic decision if an organization, considering a joint venture or a merger and there’s a committee formed CEO would want to see in turn lawyers representation and that committee if

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Organized organization is going through a restructuring or business process reengineering CEO would want to hear from the audit team as to what is your take on that. So I believe this.

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This really comes when you tank from that business perspective and you bring that business mindset and that sort of value that bigger picture.

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Approach to your work. So I believe that that is something really, really important for all of us.

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As a chief audit executive have that relationship going deliver that value that business needs to see your successes business success and if business has done something good.

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You see, I see one of my KPIs as all the major decision making or all the major success that business has made what was my contribution as CEO in that

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If we have if we have entered into our great restructuring exercise. What was ca your orders contribution in that business restructuring, if we have if we have done a great

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Joint Venture or an acquisition. What was my contribution SCA eat what extent what value today and that. So I think that perspective brings a lot of value for the management as well as for board as well.

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Well, yeah. And I think, you know, as we kind of wrap up here because again time just kind of starts to get away from me.

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The talking

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But, but I think because, again, as you’ve been talking here this last little bit i think i think it’s good to kind of just highlight to everybody who’s listening because I think

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What you’re talking about is, is not what some people are doing, or it’s not what some people are thinking. And so I appreciate you actually bringing that up because it’s

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I think sometimes I see a hesitation from audit of not wanting to get too involved in the business or thinking, well, I’m the auditor. I can’t be involved. I shouldn’t be involved in any of those things. And again, you know,

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Our biggest value is actually being that trusted advisor to management. Well, you’ve got to develop a relationship with them. You’ve got to be involved in those projects.

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To be able to help that you know because traditionally audit has always been historical looking, you know, we go in and select a sample of the last year’s

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Transactions.

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Well, honestly, who gives a crap.

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Point.

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From, from a management perspective. They’re like, don’t tell me what already happened.

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Right. Help me with what I’m currently dealing with or what we’re looking at in the future.

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But I still see this hesitation from a lot of people in the profession of not wanting to jump in. But that’s really where you start to develop that trust with the business. So they do come to you and say, hey, we’re doing a new merger.

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Oh, and we’d like you guys on the team right they’re never going to come ask you that unless you’re actually helping them and really providing that value and they trust you.

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Know, absolutely. I take your point. Absolutely. This is, this is, I think this is the way forward for and whenever I we I’ve been challenged on this.

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stance that as an auditor. Why are you getting involved in these initiatives you are an independent body and who should stay independent of business, which is good in terms of the book. But when I read my definition of internal auditing by a

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Help to achieve organizations objective right that’s the purpose of my existence. I don’t exist. If I don’t help them achieve those objectives and if I bring that up, what I’ve seen, or it’s, you know,

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I report goes to the CEO 6070 page report and, you know, CEO doesn’t want to open it even AND HE SAYS, WELL, I’VE SEEN I’VE SEEN THIS REPORT 70 page report. Well, tell me what’s in there, is there anything that I should be worried about

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Business perspective.

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So, you know,

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That’s a really tricky question right because because if you’re like No, not really. Then they’re like

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That’s like why do I have you here.

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Right, yeah.

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For

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You. I’ve been doing this from last couple of months you listed time and resources when there is nothing valuable for me as a CEO right

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So that that romantic. So that’s why I always suggest whenever you’re making a recommendation to sea level. Bring that filter of business. There is this observation really important for business and how if yes, that

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Matters to be in that internal audit report and if if really not then probably you can work with those process owners to get that sorted out, but for CEO level people and executive level, they really need to know something about their business.

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And

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And getting involved in those initiatives and I would say being

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There and the front line I would give you an example about how you know you can still have the business without even being doing a typical already now and we did once. So when we were in

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When I was working all in gas sector company we formed a workshop, because a lot of the major equipment used to go out for a major overhaul and, you know,

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And analysis was done and we realized that building own workshop one time investment with save us a lot of money in going ahead.

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And business decision was made that. Okay, we’re going to have our own workshop workshop, but established we have that all that equipment to do that major overhaul and we hired some stuff and some maintenance rate, the staff to work in that workshop which was all good. So, in turn, law does

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Risk Assessment and say, wow, it’s a new area with no expertise comes and then downloaded. Are we going all that you so I called head of

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Workshop and I said hey we’re going on with you this year and second quarter of the year. So there’s just a heads up our plan has been approved. So just be ready. I’ll give you a more specific information when I get closer.

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And said, well im run. That’s right.

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You can come an audit me and you will have a real big report audit report coming out of that and you

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Already knew there were problems right

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Yeah, and it says, because a lot of we are just in an infancy stage and we haven’t finalized our processes, we don’t know how to build it. We don’t have that customer and customer interface. The rather than

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The procedures, how each and every step would follow. But if you want to order it as at this stage, you will have a lot of stuff to be devoted

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But it’s your call. Then I said to him, I asked myself a question. What are we here at the main purpose is to really help the business to

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Be better managed and be able to provide that assurance to the key stakeholders.

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So then I said to the

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Had a workshop. And I said, let’s do one thing you develop your policies, procedures customer interface and your internal processes.

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And we will review independently those processes from risk and control perspective and we’ll give you our opinion. So that’s what happened right from the start of the year, they started working on doors, things started rapper to intel on it. Hey, what is your take on that.

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And we gave feedback.

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You know, do this, do that, you know, I see this thing missing and that, why don’t you incorporate this layer or this control and that. So what happened at the end of the year.

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The processes were improved who workshop was up and running, delivering

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great value to the business and be as audit function we’re able to provide an opinion that objectives will be met and value will be added, but we never did an audit.

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Yeah, and you know, so it’s like when you truly think about partnering with the business and see where it that adds

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More value and it’s it’s fair to change your audit plans and go to audit committee and say, look, we’ve planned this. Or it as part of our audit plan. They are not ready and we take their point

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We need to give them some time. We will, we can work with them and establishing these things, you know,

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And once that all set, we can go for audit and we changed that we had that audit committees, go ahead. But in the end,

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The real value was there the process owners were really happy and satisfied that we have got something robust implemented, right, or the first time and we as an audit function were able to tell

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Audit Committee that hey, we have looked into all these things from a risk and control perspective and we are okay I’m comfortable that they are going fine ahead.

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So, um, it’s truly about partnering it’s truly about the same thing as what is good for the business and how do we help them achieve that, that, you know,

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You might see a lot of people asking questions about independence and saying that hey you’re part of the process, how you’re going to order them now.

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You know, so we can only say, Yes, I have. I haven’t implemented that. But I have the view that control and risk perspective and that doesn’t stop me auditing them next year to see and because there is always businesses.

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ever evolving and there will always be room for improvement. I can always go next year or a year ahead and say, Okay, I want to look into your processes once more from an independent audit perspective. So that’s goes on, but it’s really the value that you that you bring to the table actually

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Well, I think that’s a good point because, you know, again, kind of from my opinion.

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You know, traditional audit would say, Oh, Mr. On you didn’t do an audit right you you didn’t really do your job.

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Your KPI

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Yeah you miss your KPI you didn’t do an audit and I would say right fully on that you provided way more value than that audit what of right because

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Because again, let’s let’s pretend right like you had just done the traditional audit you would have had this huge report that said there were all these problems. Yeah, the manager of that area already knew.

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Exactly right. And so he’s probably going to get whipped around from management, but instead partnering with them, helping them to to improve and develop what they need to

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That adds a lot more value. And again, right to the people that would say, Oh, you weren’t independent. So you can’t do an audit. Again, I would say, you know what, that’s fine. Don’t don’t audit that area.

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You’re still providing more value by helping them out. Then, then you know issuing some audit report that just doesn’t really make a lot of sense. Right.

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I agree. I think Jason, we would continue to face this dilemma wrote, I think since then download it was born until day you always

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Have this question about your independence here. You’re getting involved in business and you know you’re crossing that line of independence, which is, I know this is very

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thin margin between the two, but it’s it’s more about, you know, adding that value to the business that’s really people want to see as the role of Intel or it

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Moving forward as more future focused advising the management. What is, what is more beneficial for the business and when maintain that integrity and that objectivity. You’re always

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Seen as an independent party. And when you have that courage to take that tough decisions that would clearly portray on your independent stance on whatever business decisions are so you can demonstrate it with with your act. So yeah, it’s, it’s always a tricky business to be in. But yeah.

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It’s an interesting one as well.

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Well, no. Hey, I really appreciate you talking with me. I mean, again, it’s like you’ve given lots of information. So what I wanted to do is just maybe for 30 seconds or so kind of give people

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Somewhat of a summary. Because again, there’s a few of these points that you made that I want to make sure that people don’t miss right so

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You know, again, when we first started talking about your career and obviously you know you’ve got technical stuff school certifications everything else. And I love that term that you’re the CEO of your own career development. So I

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might steal that from you a little bit

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That’s good.

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But, but, you know, you, you were developing it on the technical side but you realized how important it was to really understand the business and spent a lot of time actually.

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Learning about what your company did and the different aspects to it. And again, you know, kudos to you because I don’t see a lot of auditors doing that. And that is one of the biggest things that we have to do.

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If we’re going to be relevant. If you don’t, if you don’t really understand your, your company or the business that they’re doing. You’re a great auditor and that’s fabulous. But you’ll never be a trusted advisor. If you don’t understand the business. If you’re not likable.

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Oh, yeah.

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You know, because we talked about likeability if

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People don’t like. Yeah. And if people don’t trust you then hey, you know what, it doesn’t matter in that likeability and trust comes from

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Developing the relationships spending more time maybe understanding and again you may feel like, Well, I’m not putting out as many audit reports as I need to. It’s like

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That doesn’t even matter. Right. I mean, I remember a time and you know one of the companies that I that I worked for before you know we had a huge chemical division.

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Uh huh.

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Well, I went through, you know, high school, college and graduate degree never taking chemistry.

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Okay. And so here I am, you know, one of our

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major divisions is a chemical company.

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So I had to understand the business. I sat down with some of the guys that were Ph. Ds and chemical engineers and for two or three days, they just taught me. You know, I understood the periodic table of elements and

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Ya.

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Know the chemical reactions, but they actually explained to me the chemical reactions and why

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The factory was set up the way it was. But we were trying to to do throughout the whole process. Now we could understand a lot better on how to actually do that. So don’t be afraid to take the time

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To develop the relationships and understand the business better because when you do finally get to auditing, it’s going to make you a lot better now and

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You know, again, I think that’s, that’s kind of shown in your career path as well, you know, because you focused on more than just your technical skills. Look at where you are, man.

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Thanks very much.

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No, I really appreciate your

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You know your advice to out and I really appreciate the way you’re helping the profession as well in all different perspective. I do follow you, your thought leadership, your articles and video training sessions as well fantabulous

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Fantastic.

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I might have to steal that word from you.

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Well hey thanks again, my friend. It was good to to reconnect and get to talk to you. And like I said, I’m really, I’m grateful for you taking the time. Because what you shared today is going to help a lot of other people as well.

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Thanks very much, Jason. Have a great day ahead, and thank you for giving me this opportunity to share this with you. All right. You’re welcome. We’ll talk to you later. Thank you. Bye bye.

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