E217 Rising from the Mailroom to the Boardroom with Bruce Turner

In today’s episode we bring back Bruce Turner to discuss how to improve yourself in your career, and how to become the leader that you will need to be.

If you feel like your career may be feeling stagnant, or you continue to keep getting looked over for that coveted promotion, today’s podcast is a must listen!

Get a VIP backstage pass and behind the scenes information when you sign up for The Jamming with Jason newsletter: https://bit.ly/3k53OjS

Get a copy of Bruce’s latest book: “Rising from the Mailroom to the Boardroom
Unique Insights for Governance, Risk, Compliance and Audit Leaders” at:

https://www.routledge.com/Rising-from-the-Mailroom-to-the-Boardroom-Unique-Insights-for-Governance/Turner/p/book/9780367559991

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Alright well in today’s discussion, I have my friend Bruce Turner back with me and today we’re going to be talking about how you can rise up.

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Jason Mefford: From the mail room to the boardroom and I have to tell you Bruce is a great case study and example of this, because I know.

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Jason Mefford: You know the fact that you’re listening to this means you’re probably somebody who wants to improve yourself and your career.

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Jason Mefford: And so we’re going to show you exactly how that’s done and the type of LEADER that you need to be in order to move up like that so whatever you do make sure that you listen through and learn how you can rise up from the mail room to the boardroom so with that let’s bring in Bruce.

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Bruce Turner: Jason.

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Jason Mefford: Good I Bruce how you doing mate.

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Bruce Turner: It could be Thank you.

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Jason Mefford: I know it’s it’s it’s always good to have one of my odds ozzy friends on with me, because then I can actually use the word mate and everybody it doesn’t like look at me.

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Jason Mefford: I got really weird right but but yeah I know you know we’ve talked We talked a couple times before, and wanted to make sure, and have you back because you just finished up a new book.

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Jason Mefford: Right called rising from the mail room to the boardroom yeah unique insights for governance risk compliance and audit leaders.

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Jason Mefford: So, again that’s that’s been your your lane, if you will professionally kind of in that area, but you know again just for anybody who’s listening if you’re not in that area.

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Jason Mefford: don’t worry, because what we’re going to be talking about today are some of the concepts and kind of traits character traits you need to have.

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Jason Mefford: In order to be able to do that right, and I think you know Bruce we’ve talked before, but you you got people asking you all the time right hey Bruce.

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Jason Mefford: How do I do that, how do I, how do I move up how do I get promoted in the organization I, because I know you I think you’ve mentored quite a few people over your career to be able to help them get there right.

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Bruce Turner: yeah absolutely in the mentoring started through programs through the Institute of internal auditors and I still do some of those.

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Bruce Turner: And then it’s morphed into mentoring of chief executives and mentoring, a board chairs because.

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Bruce Turner: Once they might be specialists within the area of activity, you know professors or doctors or whatever they’re not familiar with some of the fundamentals of governance risk compliance assurance and so forth, so.

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Bruce Turner: I bring to the table some of those insights that I can share and help them, you know run their organization better through a chief executive or.

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Bruce Turner: run their board better if they’re a boogeyman and it’s worked really well and that sort of prompted me to think well.

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Bruce Turner: lots of people asking me for advice, so why don’t I try to capture some of those insights that i’ve gained over the years and do it through a storytelling type approach so it’s been a little fun to pull together.

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Jason Mefford: Well yeah because I think you know we you like to use the stories and, obviously, having been in your career as long as you have I mean maybe like you know, in case, this is the first time somebody heard you talking here.

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Jason Mefford: Maybe just let’s let’s just give kind of a quick thumbnail of how your career kind of move because I mean literally from the title of the book you started off in the mailroom you did some very entry level.

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Jason Mefford: Jobs and ended up moving up into being, you know, a top executive and some of the largest organizations down there in Australia.

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Jason Mefford: To where now you’re actually you sit on boards, you have set on boards of directors, you know for for quite a while so you’re a great example of somebody who.

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Jason Mefford: With drive and dedication and we’re going to use some other words later, but intention.

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Jason Mefford: Right, have been able to move up in your career so just kind of give people just a very brief snapshot of like how your career kind of shot up and then we’ll we’ll jump in and help give them the Okay, so this is how you can be like Bruce.

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Bruce Turner: sounds good Jason so it’s this year that I started working 50 years ago.

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Bruce Turner: And I started in a junior banker position.

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Bruce Turner: And one of the things I used to do each day as a junior banker was go to the post office with a loaded pistol and.

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Bruce Turner: We used to cashing what they called money orders it didn’t go through the settlement system in those days, so I would be his teenage kid walking up the street with a loaded pistol to click a few hundred dollars worth of personal orders and.

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Bruce Turner: It didn’t make any sense to me the tonka so i’ve been given no training so.

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Jason Mefford: we’re just handed you a loaded gun and go cashless.

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Bruce Turner: yeah it was it was a little bit scary when you look at it in hindsight, and one of the things that we have these days, of course, is.

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Bruce Turner: A risk appetite but stipend at the board so that’s kind of connecting both ends of the spectrum.

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Bruce Turner: So from the junior banker position you know I spent a bunch of years, probably 30 odd years in the banking system in commercial banking merchant banking and in the Central Bank.

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Bruce Turner: And you know the early career, I was quite a successful young banker and the top banker in the state at one stage, but then I moved into the internal auditing profession and i’m glad I did because.

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Bruce Turner: it’s given me the opportunity to not just work within my local area here but i’ve worked throughout Australia, I worked in developing nations like a pepper New Guinea, I worked in financial cities like London or New York so it’s giving me that opportunity to experience the world.

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Bruce Turner: So from internal audit roles i’ve morphed into a chief ordered executive i’ve been responsible for risk management for compliance for.

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Bruce Turner: A range of other activities that that executive oversight level and from there, I moved into an audit committee chairman and, ultimately, a director on.

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Bruce Turner: Several boards and what we tried to do in the book is pulled together experiences at every different level.

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Bruce Turner: That i’ve gone through, because their insights is insights in terms of you know, carrying a loaded pistol and it kind of doesn’t make sense for young kid but certainly wouldn’t make sense in the boardroom.

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Jason Mefford: gonna be exciting, though, as a kid right, I mean it’s it’s like well because there was the old joke, you know when I when I was going through accounting.

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Jason Mefford: In college right and it was like okay folks there’s there’s a few pistol but we called pistol packing CPA a’s.

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Jason Mefford: And so, if you were in the US, you know if you work for the Department of treasury you get to carry a gun.

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Jason Mefford: If you work for the FBI you get to wear carry a gun right but but normally you wouldn’t think of that from from banking but.

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Jason Mefford: I want to bring up because, again, you know, as I told everybody, you know who’s listening or watching this right is.

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Jason Mefford: Is you know you’re going to learn things as we’re talking that are relevant, regardless of what profession, you happen to be in.

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Jason Mefford: And so what I heard you saying there to was you know you started off as a banker, and then you really kind of switch profession, if you will.

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Jason Mefford: And I know a lot of people are really scared to do that because they think no, you know I come out of college i’ve got certain skill set, I have to do this for the next 40 or 50 years of my life.

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Jason Mefford: But your evidence that you don’t have to do that right, I mean you move from being a banker to going into internal audit to risk management to some other things, and ultimately to a board members so.

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Jason Mefford: So if i’m hearing you right it’s okay to change career trajectory even partway through right, you can still going to be okay.

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Bruce Turner: Absolutely, and it was pretty scary for me when I moved from commercial banking into the Central Bank, because i’d worked with the same organization for 18 years at that point in time.

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Bruce Turner: And I had a young family and there’s a hell of a risk you take, where you think you’re taking this risk you don’t know whether you’ve got the capability to do that other job and commercial banking is very, very different to central banking.

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Jason Mefford: Oh yeah.

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Bruce Turner: So even that sort of decision in the same sector was it was quite scary but I got in there and I thought Well, this is pretty good, and then they went through a.

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Bruce Turner: Structural change and every senior manager at the time, including myself, and anybody know six months and had to reapply for the jobs.

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Jason Mefford: In here you have a young family and kids.

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Jason Mefford: Literally tell you probably move to if you were a Central Bank did you have to move to camera to are you, you have to stay.

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Bruce Turner: in Sydney.

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Jason Mefford: You can still certainly okay.

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Bruce Turner: yeah which is probably you know it was probably three hours a day commuting for me there and back, but that gave me time to read things that I needed to do for work and so forth.

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Bruce Turner: That you know that was especially worrying because we were competing in the jobs were opened up to the world, you know any particular capability could apply for it.

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Bruce Turner: um you know, took a few months and and then things settle down, I was reappointed but even that.

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Bruce Turner: is especially worrying because you don’t know what you you’re going to get into and then later on, as you get a bit older a bit wiser bit more experienced.

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Bruce Turner: Changing roles is less difficult because you know what you’ve got and you’ve got the confidence to go in and make the changes, you made to make.

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Bruce Turner: And so my final job was as the chief ordered executive at the Australian tax office and I was recruited into the role and a lot of the people were based out in camera, which is three hours drive from my home.

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Bruce Turner: And you know met the deputy, Commissioner, on the first day and a bunch of other executives and then went out to make my team in.

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Bruce Turner: In one of the outer suburbs of Cambridge and what actually come prepared, I came prepared with my first hundred days plan, I came prepared with a PowerPoint presentation.

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Bruce Turner: The Deputy Commissioner nearly fell off his Jerry he was so stoked they’re prepared, I was, but I gave a message to the staff, then and I could see the doubts.

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Bruce Turner: we’ve heard all this before you know, is this going to happen or not, and of course I then chose out the biggest doubters and gradually brought them behind me, and it was through their efforts.

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Bruce Turner: That were able to make the changes that we needed to make that was really exciting so when you can you can change careers, and I think it’s really important to evolve.

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Bruce Turner: it’s nice having a 30 year career and doing the same thing, year on year you’ve got to branch out you’ve got to have a sense of accomplishment and if you’re doing the same thing with Tom you often don’t get that.

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Jason Mefford: I like what you said there too, you know, because with with age right we’ve all got a little loose you may have a little bit more Gray Gray or white hair used to have.

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Jason Mefford: But but it’s you know it’s over time you use the word confidence to because I think again, a lot of people struggle with confidence and they want to be more confident.

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Jason Mefford: But how do you get more confidence it’s by going through some of the experiences right because, like you said, the first time that you.

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Jason Mefford: change jobs, you change roles you change companies right it’s it’s scary because we’ve never done it before, but the more we do it, the easier it becomes I think right.

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Bruce Turner: It does absolutely.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and I think you know so again it’s the you know don’t don’t worry about don’t think that you have to have everything figured out.

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Jason Mefford: Because again i’m guessing that you know when when you started off you had no idea that 50 years later, in your career, you would be where you are at.

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Bruce Turner: All not at all.

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Jason Mefford: Not at all right.

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Bruce Turner: And that’s The interesting thing you actually don’t know what the journey is but along the journey pick me up for skills and those fresh skills.

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Bruce Turner: make you marketable in the eyes of others and that’s something that we need to.

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Bruce Turner: That that sort of interest that enthusiasm to learn and continue our professional development is something that I want to encourage people to do because you just don’t know where it’s going to take you.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and that’s that’s one of that’s one of the big topics that I am big about is that enthusiasm to learn.

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Jason Mefford: right because again it’s we never know where we’re going to get you can life does take these twists and turns.

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Jason Mefford: And sometimes maybe it feels like I don’t really understand why this is happening to me but later on, we learn why right at the time we don’t necessarily have the benefit of hindsight, because you don’t have hindsight until till you turn around and went backwards right.

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Bruce Turner: Yes, you don’t and when I was first approached to take on a role of the merchant bank on the content from from from my bank commercial bank.

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Bruce Turner: who had a 50% stake with the merchant bank and I was there to hit up the internal audit function and establish its its inaugural internal audit function, and I still pretty young.

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Bruce Turner: But also successful banker, you know every training course I went to within the Bank, I was topping so I should have had more confidence than probably what I did, and when I was first asked to do it, I said no, I won’t.

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Bruce Turner: And this was one of those things where you go there for 12 months and you come back to you, your core role, so the risk was pretty limited but still having that confidence to do it.

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Bruce Turner: was something that I learned over the years and, of course, you go in there and you’re learning a whole new thing because the other stakeholder in the organization was a German bank.

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Bruce Turner: And they do things very differently in Germany and Australia and US and UK so learning fresh things, then, and you kind of think afterwards well.

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Bruce Turner: There wasn’t too bad I can actually do that I can hold my own, where there’s other people who are really high profile and still do a good job and have have the confidence of management to succeed.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well and that’s The thing is that you know I think sometimes people they get the cart before the horse, they want the confidence before they do anything.

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Jason Mefford: But confidence comes from doing the things.

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Bruce Turner: that’s it.

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Jason Mefford: Right so so until you actually you know get in there and do it you’re not going to have the confidence.

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Jason Mefford: Because that that comes from the doing, but I wanted to kind of go back to to what you were saying you know when you when you went into the.

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Jason Mefford: I think it was to the taxi to the tax authority mean you made a comment you know about some of the people kind of be on the naysayers and you kind of be able to pick them out, because I know, one of the things that we wanted to make sure and talk about, and this is what.

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Jason Mefford: It, at least where I see a lot of people in their failings is their lack of the people side of the role right, and so, especially.

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Jason Mefford: In the profession that you and I have have come up in you know a lot of it is around the technical things that we need to have and so so leaders tend to get promoted because they’re technically competent.

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Jason Mefford: But, but what I see is that there there tends to become a point when people are kind of.

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Jason Mefford: How do I say this over promoted maybe in so you’ve probably seen it working with executives i’ve seen it working with executives as well to where.

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Jason Mefford: Somebody gets to a point, and they all of a sudden, they realize they kind of you know stick their head up and they’re like holy shit I don’t know how to how to lead people I never got really taught.

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Jason Mefford: Some of these things so So what are some of these you know the the people side of the stuff that really for us to be able to move forward in our career to grow.

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Jason Mefford: To have some of these other opportunities, what are some of these people side of things that we need that we need to be focusing on and actually kind of developers skills.

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Bruce Turner: that’s a really good question you hear a lot of business leaders talk about people being the most important asset, and I think that’s really true.

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Bruce Turner: And so we didn’t the book, we talk about the hundred and one building blocks so each of those is a unique assets that are necessary for people.

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Bruce Turner: So one of the things that we delve into is the onboarding of younger people, we need to do it thoughtfully and it’s important to maintain a fun business environment.

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Bruce Turner: it’s important for us to be able to identify talent it’s important for us to be able to leverage emotional intelligence.

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Bruce Turner: To invest in personal, professional growth and to understand a personal brand, we need to do that for ourselves, but encouraging people to do that as well.

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Bruce Turner: We also need to inspire people by recognizing good performance and we also need to take the hard decisions of time and deal with poor performance so each of those.

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Bruce Turner: There fits into a separate building block and we’d actually delve into it, I actually tell stories about some of my personal experiences.

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Bruce Turner: And it’s not all easy going, you know we make mistakes along the way, but we learned from those mistakes so each of those building blocks is introduced her personal story.

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Bruce Turner: And then we talk about what it means for the readers, this is what you should be considering doing, and this is what will mean for you and for your career and your success and the success of your people.

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Bruce Turner: And that’s the that’s part of the fun of it, you know you you’re hearing these stories and you can have a bit of a giggle at times of some of the.

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Bruce Turner: events that have taken place in my life, but it actually informed by learning and informed, what I can share with others through mentoring and through storytelling in books like this.

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Jason Mefford: Book because i’m.

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Jason Mefford: guessing that.

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Jason Mefford: Over a 50 year career, you probably made some mistakes.

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Bruce Turner: Oh yes.

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Jason Mefford: So so here’s another learning for everybody who’s listening right is that, again, I see so many people that they’re afraid to do anything because they’re afraid to make a mistake right but, but you were talking about you know kind of being this curious learner.

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Jason Mefford: You know and and actually learning along the way, I mean we don’t really learn until we actually try something and we get some kind of feedback, I think, as well right.

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Jason Mefford: So so maybe let’s you know a lot of those things that you just kind of threw out there around you know.

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Jason Mefford: emotional intelligence about things like recognizing the work of others, I mean that’s that’s a huge thing that so many leaders don’t.

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Jason Mefford: Do for their people another one is around having fun right so so so so maybe let’s let’s talk a little bit about about those three because, again, I know, those are some things people are talking about, but what is, what does it really mean and how can we actually do that.

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Bruce Turner: let’s let’s start with having fun, I mean we get to work, and we spend so much time at work, each and every day.

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Bruce Turner: and

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Bruce Turner: You know, we share our lives with people at work and probably see some of the more often we see our own families and I certainly did that, when I was traveling a lot in internal altering as you do, and you made a lot of new people.

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Bruce Turner: But one of the things.

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Bruce Turner: that’s really important there is to underpin that with a sense of fun, you know, have a bit of joy shares and choice as well, so one of my most important roles as a chief audit executive at the Australian tax office.

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Bruce Turner: was getting out and judging competitions, they had within the penrith site which is my home site knows the St most senior executive there.

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Bruce Turner: And we had 1400 people and some of those were very operational roles like call centers some of those were around compliance you’re dealing with people who weren’t prepared to pay their fair share attacks and everyone.

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Jason Mefford: that’s a nice way of saying.

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Bruce Turner: it’s a little bit.

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Jason Mefford: Tax cheaters I mean I mean.

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Bruce Turner: yeah well yeah.

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Bruce Turner: One of the things I used to do was some judge competitions and whether it’s the Easter parade or something like that or whether it’s Christmas decorations around the side.

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Bruce Turner: i’d get around, and I would be doing this sort of judging had really no idea, you know about what was better.

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Bruce Turner: In terms of this location and all the Christmas decorations or this one over here, but I participated in that willingly and it took away, you know.

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Bruce Turner: Sometimes several hours of time, but I got around the side people got to know me not just as Bruce the executive, but he’s Bruce the human being and Bruce who is in heaven rugby league football support.

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Bruce Turner: Your local team and.

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Bruce Turner: We still have the beta now you know I when I retired they put on a wonderful retirement function for me at the pen with office I had one camera as well, but they invited along to that the penrith P paint that, who was the.

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Bruce Turner: Individual dressed up in a in a paint the suit and he repeated every penrith game, so he was one of the video ips with the Commissioner of taxation.

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Bruce Turner: But that’s how it can translate it can translate by having a sense of fun to making people aware of your identity your personality and therefore their willingness to come behind you, so I think there’s only a good example of that.

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Bruce Turner: And it made it unique that he is Bruce at his retirement function having the pink panther mascot.

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Bruce Turner: which I think is pretty amazing and, of course, the media picked up on that, and there were stories in the local newspapers about the tax man retiring and he is painting with paint paint that you know.

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Bruce Turner: combines a few of those but what people seeing the real you and understand your values and understand your vision and they’ll often come behind you and I also saw the example.

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Bruce Turner: Of on harmony day.

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Bruce Turner: Which is bringing people together and the color orange is synonymous with harmony day so on one occasion there I wore an orange suit and orange tie and orange shirt and covering orange to a.

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Bruce Turner: A function in the pair of socks have several hundred people there and later that day I was talking to the CIO of the audit committee, who was 300 kilometers away in camera, and they said tell me what’s this about this orange suit.

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Jason Mefford: So the news that made it always.

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Bruce Turner: Does and and again that just adds to.

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Bruce Turner: You know what people know about you and and hear about you and but it builds that that personal brand which I think is really important.

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Jason Mefford: But I think I love what you said there let let people see the real you because I think again, this is, this is one of those things that i’ve seen it has it has so many negative effects right is that if.

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Jason Mefford: If we’re not who we really are if we don’t show up and act authentically that’s the word that some people are using now to.

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Jason Mefford: Then you know we We feel this psychological disconnect inside, which can lead to depression, it can lead to a whole bunch of different things right.

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Jason Mefford: But what I hear you saying, too, is that we’re actually a better leader and people will follow behind us.

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Jason Mefford: And we establish a better brand for ourself which again that brand is what’s helping to catapult people in their career, so the fact that you’re you know you’re a rugby you know follower.

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Jason Mefford: is a good thing right it’s not something that you need to hide and be ashamed of right that when you show up in all orange you know to kind of go along with unity day it’s cool right it’s okay.

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Jason Mefford: It gets people to talk it gets people to see.

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Jason Mefford: Who Bruce is as a human being, you know, instead of somebody who’s just cold and and flat right.

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Bruce Turner: very true, so let me just pick up the so.

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Bruce Turner: I was based in the penrith site, which is an hour out of Sydney there’s another side power matter which is half an hour out of Sydney.

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Bruce Turner: And the second most senior person in the text office medical Jenny granger.

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Bruce Turner: was based on camera but Jenny came from Sydney and she was a cane follower of the south Sydney team so Jenny and I are senior executives went to the parent matters site.

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Bruce Turner: And we were delivering a talk about the vision for the organization and its priority.

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Bruce Turner: strategies and how that connected with people so hundreds of people came to this and I actually provided Jenny with a gift.

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Bruce Turner: And the gift was a scarf and the first part that she sees is the colors of South Sydney which is red and green and if she opens it up She then sees the color of parramatta, which is the blue and gold and, as she opens that are further she sees the colors of my team penrith and the.

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Bruce Turner: crowd just went nuts and what’s interesting here is that when I visited Jenny and her office in Canberra a few weeks later, she actually had the scarf draped over her lounge chair in her office.

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Bruce Turner: And then later when she left the tax office and went overseas to London day to hit up a revenue area over there.

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Bruce Turner: She actually had that scarf on the Chair over there, so something like that resonates with the crowd at the time they get a sense of enjoyment out of it, but for me it provided Jenny with a constant reminder of the penrith site which always cheaply.

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Bruce Turner: So a number of different benefits come from those sorts of.

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Bruce Turner: Things were you thinking outside the box, a little bit.

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Jason Mefford: Well, it does, and I think it’s it adds that that real human connection.

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Jason Mefford: To it right because, because with that she she was able to see your sense of your mug to love it.

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Jason Mefford: or anyone anyway penrith is on the money to.

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Jason Mefford: spend.

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Bruce Turner: Right now finding the grand final this coming weekend.

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Jason Mefford: Oh alright well there we go shout out shout out there, we go shout out but but, but I think it’s you know not not only you know, does it does it show like you said you were kind of barracking for.

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Jason Mefford: For that local Office, if you will, right but, but it also.

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Jason Mefford: shows your sense of humor.

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Jason Mefford: It shows a bond and a camaraderie right because, again, even though, even though she had a different team right you both have rugby in common right.

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Bruce Turner: Absolutely and it’s finding those common denominators and with other people that might be something totally different that you focus on, and you make sure you make the connection through that.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and I think that’s important again for everybody who’s listening everyone in the world, you can find something in common with everyone in the world, the problem is so much of the time we look for how we’re different.

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Jason Mefford: Right, instead of how we’re the same, and so I mean again Bruce you and I can do this right oh Bruce you were born in Australia, I was born in America.

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Jason Mefford: I mean we can go through, like all these stupid things and we can come up with this whole long list of ways that were different.

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Jason Mefford: But I bet we can come up with just as long of a list of the ways that we’re the same right and so again i’m sure that.

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Jason Mefford: In your career, one of the things that that made you successful was looking for those for that common ground right again in being able to develop the relationships, I know, one of the one of the.

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Jason Mefford: One of the hundred and one things building blocks that you have on here to was stay mates for life.

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Jason Mefford: right which which, again, I think you know, in that, in that example with was a Jenny you know of the of the scarf right there was a connection that the two of you had throughout your whole career because of some of that common ground and some of the common experiences that you had together.

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Bruce Turner: Absolutely end part of the story that staying mates for life now there’s people that i’ve worked with 3040 years ago seems like a long time, when we talk about it now.

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Jason Mefford: I know some of the people listening or anything that all.

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Bruce Turner: That, even if you don’t see yourselves, for a long, long time when you come back together again it’s as though nothing’s changed people look older and people might be a little more frail, but this time sense of.

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Bruce Turner: The personality is there the sense of humor hasn’t changed the the idiosyncrasies that exactly the same, and I found that out we’ve had some reunions over recent years.

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Bruce Turner: Through people i’ve worked with over the years, and these people are exactly the same, the people you are drawn to back then you’re drawn to now.

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Bruce Turner: it’s really funny how the human psyche works, but that’s the way it is and a couple of years ago, a few years ago now, I got an honor and my family arranged a surprise party and they brought to you know hundred people together in a hole, and.

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Bruce Turner: People were there from every stage of my career from every organization, we work with and even through to Michael descends a Commissioner of taxation.

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Bruce Turner: And one of the most senior executives in the public sector in Australia and he made the trek from Cambridge to be there, and you kind of think well okay i’ve had a bit of an impact and.

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Bruce Turner: I kind of like that, and the funny thing is, I had no inkling, this is a surprise party and being an order for so long, you think you’ve developed some skills, but my family were very secretive and I had no inkling.

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Bruce Turner: That I was getting a surprise party.

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Jason Mefford: Well, but, but I think it’s a testament to right to to to what you’ve done in your career and what you’re sharing in this book with people.

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Jason Mefford: Is you know I i’ve worked with a lot of executives over my lifetime and I don’t know how many times, you know there’ll be somebody and i’m.

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Jason Mefford: just going to use the name Larry because maybe this was or maybe it wasn’t his name but anyway right where where people would refer to somebody who had retired.

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Jason Mefford: And you know they were talking about Larry and Larry was a real asshole right and and nobody liked him, and you know, he was effective at what he did, but he was he was a very difficult man to work with and people were glad to see him go and finally retire right.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t think people would have shown up.

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Jason Mefford: For larry’s party like they did for years right because.

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Jason Mefford: Because, as a leader right it says staying mates for life it’s it’s actually seeing people as other human beings treating people that way it comes back right and it’s it’s that people side of life in general, and especially when you’re in the business world that people sometimes.

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Jason Mefford: Forget because they think it’s more.

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Bruce Turner: Important to.

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Jason Mefford: accomplish the projects or accomplish the task than to have a relationship with another human being.

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Bruce Turner: Yes, very true.

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Jason Mefford: so well, I know I wanted I freaky keep talking all day, but I know I wanted, I wanted to bring up because one of the things that you brought up in here was this, for I framework right, so I wanted to talk a little bit about that, because some of these words that you use on here.

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Jason Mefford: Are words that when when I was reading through this preparing i’m like Bruce you use two of my favorite words man, so I wanted to go there and talk about this because.

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Jason Mefford: You know so maybe we can talk about kind of what it is what the words are and kind of what they mean because, like I said there’s some of these words that people aren’t really familiar with.

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Jason Mefford: So you know in this, I guess, I guess, this, for I framework, I mean how How would we use this kind of in in our career and thinking about this.

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Jason Mefford: How does, how does it come through.

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Bruce Turner: Well, I guess, before I framework in this this forwards they’re made to begin with the letter is so intuition ideas intent and impact.

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Bruce Turner: And I guess the hundred one building blocks that I talked about all fit within the boundaries of those four elements.

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Bruce Turner: So if we think of it, you know when we first joined or third of the workforce, we actually don’t know what we did what we don’t know.

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Bruce Turner: And there’s so much to learn and therefore our intuition comes to the fore, because it actually differentiates people with high potential.

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Bruce Turner: From those people who might just be an average performance there’s nothing wrong with that you know, to get high above average, you need people who are an average level of people below average and you need to invest.

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Bruce Turner: In the development of each of those are two different degree, but the high potential people, those that have a natural intuition they’re the ones that you can actually see.

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Bruce Turner: Where they might be in five years 10 years time, and therefore you need to develop their capability differently to the run of the mill kind of people and that mean that disrespectfully.

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Bruce Turner: And then, as you move through different stages of your career, you start indignant glean ideas and you’re starting to see that Larry.

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Bruce Turner: has some good attributes as well that we can learn from.

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Bruce Turner: As well as other people within our own business area, as well as people in other business areas as well, so we’re getting all of these new ideas and we’re developing fresh ideas ourselves.

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Bruce Turner: And then we start reaching levels of being a supervisor or manager or an executive and once we get there.

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Bruce Turner: we’ve got to operate with intent people have got to understand what our intent is and what our our our values and what is our vision and what is it we’re going to get there to achieve that collective intense and that’s very much.

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Bruce Turner: Ensuring that we achieve the objectives and goals of the organization and then some people reach your highest pinnacle again, which is at the board level.

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Bruce Turner: Where they’re sitting around you know very influential role which can have a profound impact not just on their own entity but on a broader communities so.

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Bruce Turner: Each of those letters I have a different role to play in terms of how you craft your career and how you evolve it along the way, and it’s just important to have that in the back of your mind that.

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Bruce Turner: You go from you know very basic level of just having intuition to developing ideas to.

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Bruce Turner: Having intense and ensuring people follow you and then having a broader impact, and I know there’s things I can do at a board level, it can have an impact on not just my local area but.

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Bruce Turner: In terms of my State in terms of my country and broadly or globally, because I speak to people all over the world and and that’s where we can leverage our individual talents and their reputation that we thought.

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Jason Mefford: Well it’s I think it’s interesting like you said you know as you’re progressing through your career, you know you kind of start moving into some of these other eyes, but but as well to where it’s like in the end, this is where I see some people kind of trip up is is they kind of forget.

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Jason Mefford: about some of the younger ones about some of the other ones and it’s not necessarily about maturing through and only doing one but being able to balance all of these as well right.

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Jason Mefford: And to me, I mean two of my favorite words are intuition and intense, because I, because I think especially today we’ve gotten to where.

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Jason Mefford: we’re so reliant on just the what I call the science side of things that we forget the art side of things, or we forget the intuition side of things, and I was actually I was.

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Jason Mefford: In.

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Jason Mefford: You had to be there for the speech, but I just gave a speech, where I used to caveman example of you know.

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Jason Mefford: Trying to look at the science behind the the probability of a saber tooth tiger coming out, you know we’re hungry, we got to go get food oh it’s only a 7.4% chance right.

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Jason Mefford: And so you go up to the door and you’re getting ready to go and you’re like oh I don’t have a very good feeling about this oh don’t worry right and we pushed for sucker out the door.

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Jason Mefford: Well, because their intuition right was coming in and telling them no I don’t know that that’s really what I need to do, and so many times I think people kind of push that off and think.

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Jason Mefford: You know I can’t do that and that’s where some of this emotional intelligence, some of these other words come into it, that.

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Jason Mefford: No, I mean like you said, the people who are more intuitive especially earlier on in their career.

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Jason Mefford: Those are the people that usually make it further right because they know how to trust their gut they know how to make the quicker decisions and trust themselves, and then the same thing with intent, you know is it’s like you know I can do, I can do something.

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Jason Mefford: But my intent behind doing the thing is more important than the thing.

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Jason Mefford: As well right.

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Bruce Turner: it’s true and you’ve got to be genuine with your intent, so if you reach those very high levels within your organization.

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Bruce Turner: People have to have confidence in what you’re saying and, therefore, if you’re preaching any intent that is at odds with how you act yourself people aren’t going to follow you you’ve got to be very genuine with your intent.

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Jason Mefford: yeah because then that’s you know that goes back to some of the integrity and and other things like that, too, but.

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Jason Mefford: But as a leader it’s also where you’re able to get some benefit of the doubt, I think, to right because again we’re we’re all human we’re fallible we make mistakes.

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Jason Mefford: And, and I remember you know at different points in in my career in my life, both at work and personally right where maybe somebody did something to me that I was like oh that was kind of a.

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Jason Mefford: That wasn’t cool right, and I would have been like livid angry going off on somebody but I had history with that person, and so you know, even though something happened to me the thought that goes through my mind is.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t think that’s what Bob intended because bob’s not that kind of person right, and so, even though he did this thing that maybe was hurtful or whatever else i’ve got to assume that bob’s intent was not to hurt me.

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Jason Mefford: Yet right.

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Jason Mefford: And and that’s where I think you know to kind of tie back in on some of the people, things that we’ve been talking about when people know you and they know your heart.

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Jason Mefford: They know who you are they know the place of intention that you come from as well right but that that gets built up over time that’s part of these people skills, you know that you’re talking about in the book.

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Bruce Turner: It is, and one of the things that I put a lot of effort into within the book is to recognize that the stories i’m sharing.

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Bruce Turner: In the insights that i’m sharing and Chester a.

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Bruce Turner: They come from other people so actually close the book with a little section, where I talk about 24 people called legends legends who inspired me.

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Bruce Turner: And within that i’ve got a dozen people who said above me in you know board chair roles or executive roles or Chief Executive roles, or whatever, and then a dozen people who were peers or.

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Bruce Turner: at a level level, to me, and I also managed to get the balance right, in terms of gender so.

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Bruce Turner: It was really important for me to to actually draw that out, but just to recognize these people, but to press the point very clearly that success doesn’t come from.

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Bruce Turner: Your and if it’s individually, they come from what you do with other people and therefore let’s not forget that they’re important part of that journey.

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Jason Mefford: But they are, they are a very important part of the journey and it’s it as you were as you were talking about that there were.

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Jason Mefford: A few faces in my career that kind of jumped out right like I remember you know what one person I was, I was young, I had two little kids I was still in college working for a big company in the accounting department and.

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Jason Mefford: And there was an accounting role that came open and accountant one position right so entry level account, and I was a still an intern.

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Jason Mefford: In college and I remember you know, having to struggle of here I am you know earning like six or $7 an hour i’ve got you know, two little kids and a wife and.

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Jason Mefford: gosh you know that it seemed like so much money for that entry level job right.

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Jason Mefford: And so I put in an application, because I mean I was qualified yeah I was, I was a few months away from getting my degree, but I really was already pretty much doing the job I knew the job.

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Jason Mefford: And, and so you know talk to my wife about it, we put in put in my application for it and, and I remember that the guy who was who was our controller.

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Jason Mefford: You know I mean normally he wouldn’t talk to an accounting intern I mean he knew who I was, and he was nice to me and everything but I remember he called me into into his office you know which was kind of a big deal right.

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Jason Mefford: I mean, because here’s it here’s this guy that’s.

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Jason Mefford: You know, probably 40 years older than me right and and he says, you know Jason I just have to tell you that we’re going to.

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Jason Mefford: we’re going to take out your application we’re not we’re not going to put it through or have you go through the interview process and i’m like why and he’s like I see the potential that you have.

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Jason Mefford: And this is not the job for you you’re going to graduate you’re going to go to work in public accounting, you need to have a totally different career i’m not gonna let you shoot yourself in the foot by getting this job now.

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Bruce Turner: yeah yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Right and and, at the time, you know, maybe a little disappointed again because, like you said right, it was a lot of money, different right, but he was so right, and I am so grateful for him.

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Jason Mefford: You know, he did a few other things for me over my career, too, but but for having people like that.

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Jason Mefford: You know, and I think that that’s one of the things that we forget sometimes is that we are all connected in some way or another to right and.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s it’s about giving back it’s about paying it forward it’s about you know, treating everybody with respect.

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Jason Mefford: And you know so when you do have your retirement party, a couple hundred people are going to show up.

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Jason Mefford: And, and you know, like did for years right, I mean you’ve had an amazing career over the last 50 years where people wouldn’t show up because you’re a good human being that’s why I like it man.

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Jason Mefford: You know.

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Bruce Turner: Very humbled.

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Jason Mefford: Well, but it’s but it’s it’s just truth to the to the fact that.

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Jason Mefford: You know I think sometimes people feel like you got to be an asshole to get ahead in this life, but you don’t have to be that way.

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Bruce Turner: they’re not at all and, and I think you’ve got to invest in the development of the next generations that are coming through and.

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Bruce Turner: I know that I took a particularly interesting graduate recruitment and you know I used to at different times, we would have you know 3456 people.

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Bruce Turner: As graduates coming into our internal audit teams and i’m at a special case that whenever I visited that particular site where where it was down in Melbourne or kaberle within Cindy.

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Bruce Turner: I would actually have meetings with the graduates, some of them would be one on one, some of them would be you know the group of three or four graduates of that particular side.

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Bruce Turner: And some of them would remark that they never actually seen in managers manager little and the senior executive.

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Bruce Turner: And I thought that was really sad and and what we used to do sometimes we would have a conversation around what they were still studying is that part of the graduate.

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Bruce Turner: internship and others that would come and they wouldn’t really have a topic that I wanted to talk about which suited me because, then I could.

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Bruce Turner: Talk about something and I thought was important for them and get their interest in that, so I actually thought it was really worthwhile and.

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Bruce Turner: You know that resulted in a whole bunch of them staying within the internal audit profession.

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Bruce Turner: It also meant that they would go out and talk to the other graduates within the organization, who then one of the heaviest 19 internal audit.

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Bruce Turner: Even though coming from HR background or marketing background or whatever they saw the value of coming and working with internal order for 345 or six months rotation.

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Bruce Turner: and learning some skills around governance risk and compliance and and assurance and for me that was really important because that also meant that down the track internal auditors had ambassadors.

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Bruce Turner: In management or executive positions, and I think it’s it’s a it’s a circle, the joints you’ve got to make sure that people coming through.

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Bruce Turner: into graduate roles or a junior roles understand what the the gig is about, and you know when they do that they can sort of find a bit of that passion that we might have as well.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well it’s you know it’s it’s that good reminder again of you know.

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Jason Mefford: Always treating other people, the way we’d want to be treated as well you know, like you said, I mean it was such a surprise for those for those newer entry level folks to say well.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t even get to talk to my supervisors manager and here you are like the big boss coming and talking to me just like i’m another human being right.

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Jason Mefford: And I think sometimes you know again it’s the further up a lot of people get an organization, they forget or they lose touch with that human connection of the people that are there, and by that so important, you know from a from a leadership perspective so.

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Jason Mefford: yeah so I guess you know, again, I can keep we can keep talking all day.

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Jason Mefford: But you know I guess many final final kind of comments or things that you want to make sure, and leave with people I mean again.

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Jason Mefford: You know, obviously, everybody go out get get rising from the mail room to the boardroom bruce’s book new book and we’ll make sure, and put put a link to that so you can find that as well, but you know fight final thoughts for for people as well.

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Jason Mefford: On on how they can be successful in their career.

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Bruce Turner: I think it’s as simple as do your best in whatever you do make sure you find the passion and actually having fun with what you’re doing.

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Bruce Turner: And, and your career isn’t going to just be all awkward this is going to be times, where things don’t go quite right, so be prepared for the.

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Bruce Turner: Both upward and downward spirals you might have within a career and you know just do your best, and if you do your best and you continue to learn.

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Bruce Turner: And if you act as a sponge you know, taking the insights you get from people that you have a high regard for.

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Bruce Turner: Taking what you came when you go to training courses, taking the opportunities, you have for professional development, and we really genuinely what you do you create will just find you know, a rhythm that you’re happy with yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and I think it’s you know it’s that that.

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Jason Mefford: As you kind of you know, brought home again that enthusiasm to learn that we kind of talked about before, and the fact that yeah it’s not it’s not always going to just be.

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Jason Mefford: Great I mean sometimes there’s going to be lateral move sometimes there’s going to be some setbacks, you know i’ve seen that before where people, maybe got.

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Jason Mefford: got promoted to early they weren’t ready they weren’t able to kind of perform at that particular area had to take a step back.

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Jason Mefford: Later on, then they’re able to kind of come forward right, and you know that, having fun and realizing it’s just a job right.

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Jason Mefford: At the end of the day and and sometimes I think we take ourselves too serious and we just need to have fun.

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Jason Mefford: As we’re going along and the more like you said genuine that we can be the more authentic we are of who we are and doing our best in whatever that looks like it’s going to serve you well in your career.

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Bruce Turner: you’ve official.

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Jason Mefford: It well, I mean because because again at the end of the day.

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Jason Mefford: You know, know when when we’re on our deathbed not that we’re ever going to get there, but you know i’ve heard a bunch of those you know.

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Jason Mefford: Surveys and data that’s been collected on that right and and and when people are reflecting back on life it’s usually not gee I wish I would have worked more.

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Jason Mefford: it’s usually she I wish i’d been a kinder person I wish I had more fun I wish I, you know that kind of stuff.

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Jason Mefford: In the ironic thing in your career is is truth to this too right, the more fun, you have the more genuine you are, the more you connect with people it’s actually really good for your career to.

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Bruce Turner: me and one of the significant learnings I had one data management development course 20 or 30 years ago was let’s sit down now and write our own eulogy.

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Bruce Turner: If we want a eulogy now.

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Bruce Turner: We can actually reflect on that as we move through, and it can actually influence and how we behave and what we focus on which comes back to what you were saying you know, make sure that we add genuine in what we do and that we do care for other people.

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Jason Mefford: yeah yeah because ultimately that’s the.

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Jason Mefford: that’s, the key to it in fact it.

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Jason Mefford: It reminds me of the.

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Jason Mefford: Harvard Harvard has done a study for like the last 70 or 80 years they took that took a graduating class and.

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Jason Mefford: they’d like followed up with these people for 75 or 80 years and the one the one correlation that they had for a long healthy and happy life.

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Jason Mefford: Was the quality of the relationships of the people yeah and so you know that’s true in our personal life it’s true in our business life as well.

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Jason Mefford: A lot of times we forget about and we don’t spend as much time developing and maintaining those relationships, but it’s a human side that you’re talking about, and when we do that.

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Jason Mefford: Not only is a good for our career.

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Jason Mefford: She makes us happy to.

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Jason Mefford: which go figure who’d want to be happy right.

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Bruce Turner: And so lately.

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Jason Mefford: Absolutely well Bruce, as always, is a pleasure to talk to you man, thank you.

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Jason Mefford: appreciate you actually putting you know everything that you have into this book i’ve read through some of the some of the pre stuff and it’s it’s fabulous so go out and get it as well, so.

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Bruce Turner: Thanks very much Jason.

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Jason Mefford: Thank you.

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Bruce Turner: Nice to talk to you man you’re.

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Jason Mefford: talking to you.

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Okay.

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