E196 Leadership Biases in Returning to the Office with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky

Mistakes from some of the largest companies in the world on return to the office is costing billions of dollars.

Don’t want to make the same mistakes? Listen to this #JammingwithJason #podcast where I talk with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky about what the result of research from organizations like Harvard, SHRM, Microsoft and others is showing about the reality of bring employees back into the office.

And the numbers are shocking!! You’ll see how much more productive employees are when they work from home, how 50% of employees will look for a new job if they don’t have remote work options, and how ineffective it is to manage people in person versus remotely.

We discuss what employees really want based on the research, cognitive biases leaders continue to make when it comes to returning to the office (some of which are very discriminatory), and how a team led hybrid with some full remote options is quickly becoming the new normal, along with what you need to do to be successful and more productive.

You can get a copy of Gleb’s new book “Returning to the Office and Leading Hybrid and Remote Teams: A Manual on Benchmarking to Best Practices for Competitive Advantage” on Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Gleb-Tsipursky-ebook/dp/B095J5NNJW/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_es_US=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=NIBH8I6FUAAY&dchild=1&keywords=gleb+tsipursky&qid=1626801990&sprefix=gleb+tsi%2Caps%2C188&sr=8-1

Listen in at: https://www.jasonmefford.com/jammingwithjason/

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Welcome to another episode of jamming with Jason hey today I have back Dr Glenn to persky who, who is also a little early in the morning for me.

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Jason Mefford: To talk a little bit more about his new book returning to the office and leading hybrid and remote teams.

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Jason Mefford: And if you’ve listened before you’ve you’ve heard glib on here before he does some serious research on these topics.

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Jason Mefford: And so again i’ve been talking to you about some of this stuff already but i’m excited to have glib here with me because he’s done the research he’s got the numbers, and so this is how to lead a hybrid and remote team so with that let’s roll that episode.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Thank you john Jason appreciate it’s good to be back.

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Jason Mefford: I know well it’s it’s you know when you reached out, it was like oh Okay, you know because I think before we talked about cognitive biases which.

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Jason Mefford: are a big thing that a lot of people that I talked to have, I think we’re going to talk a little bit about some of them today.

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Jason Mefford: But you know I know this whole idea of returning to the Office, what does that look like you know, do we allow people to work remotely 100% of the time, do we do hybrid do we force everybody to come back into the office.

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Jason Mefford: As a leader how am I going to have to be different right, because I think that’s what’s scaring a lot of people.

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Gleb Tsipursky: yeah.

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Jason Mefford: And so you know i’m excited to have you here, because, like I said you’ve gone through you’ve done a bunch of research, you just came out with a new book.

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Jason Mefford: And we’ll make sure, and have that link down below so returning to the office and leading hybrid and remote teams and the link to that book on Amazon will be down below as well, but.

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Jason Mefford: You know let’s let’s just jump in and kind of start talking about it right, because I know i’ve read a lot of things i’ve heard things anecdotally people that I coach and that are in my programs are asking me about this.

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Jason Mefford: Right so So what are you seeing what’s what’s the the landscape that’s really out.

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Jason Mefford: There, as far as what this is, is it a big deal, how do we deal with it, what really is the path going forward when it comes to returned office.

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Gleb Tsipursky: that’s clearly a big deal, I mean we’re seeing trillion dollar companies and we don’t have that many.

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Gleb Tsipursky: of us are mistakes in this topic.

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Gleb Tsipursky: I mean look what happened with Google Google was for many months, saying that they’ll get all their employees.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Back to that original offices, saying that saying that saying that and my internal sources of Google are telling me that you know there’s a lot of opposition internal opposition there’s turnover people leaving.

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Gleb Tsipursky: and on may 30 after saying for many months we’ll get everyone back the original offices Google backtracked said, you know we screwed up now will allow up to 20% of our workforce to work remotely and other.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Another 20% will work from any office they want and 60% will come in on a hybrid scheduled maybe 123 days a week.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So what happened there Google lost a lot of top talent it lost a lot of morale it lost a lot of PR credibility and it had to change a lot of its plants.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Obviously, it was planning to return back to the office that cause Google made millions of dollars many, many millions of dollars.

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Gleb Tsipursky: funny thing is about a month after that on June 10 Amazon said the same things for the same reasons, so again turn over you know all this stuff PR hits morale and engagement hit.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And having to change their plans again many millions of dollars now from internal information from apple apple employees are kind of a rebellion against apples plan to bring them all back to the office and.

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Gleb Tsipursky: High of there lots of folks leaving there’s even public discord which is pretty rare for apple but they’re publicly coming out, and this is Satan serious issue.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And, of course, smaller companies, you know companies as small as uber have announced the same sort of things, and this is happening across some just naming big big built well known companies.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Lots of middle market companies lots of small companies, the same things happening and we’re seeing that leaders are fundamentally at the top levels, I mean you don’t get much higher than Google and Amazon, these are.

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Gleb Tsipursky: The trillion dollar behemoths right, and they are fundamentally screwing up the return to the office fundamentally screwing up the future of work, so if they’re fundamentally screwing it up we’re seeing some of the other folks fundamentally screwing it up.

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Jason Mefford: and see if it’s affecting them it’s affecting most every other business as well.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Exactly I was doing some work for based on my book, so my book came out will return it office and leading hybrid and remote teams and an organization.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Of PR executive approached in this is an organization, so the national chapter, the national version of this organization.

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Gleb Tsipursky: which has local chapters around the world, especially in the US and Canada, many, many thousands of pure executives.

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Gleb Tsipursky: That will have chairs managing those groups and they asked me to help them with the return to the Office for the executives and one of the first things I asked well.

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Gleb Tsipursky: have your executives done evaluation surveys of their employees and what they want and returning the office.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And then they put that into their survey to survey the executives and they found out that only 44% of middle market companies, ranging from 10 to 3000 people that’s kind of the level we’re talking about that service 44% asked that employees.

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Gleb Tsipursky: What their employees watch in permanent boss pandemic work arrangements and returning to the office you know how pathetic is that How sad is that and that’s what we’re seeing across the board.

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Gleb Tsipursky: really bad decision making, even at the stage of information gathering so i’ll talk about cognitive biases a little later, but here.

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Gleb Tsipursky: we’re seeing really bad decision making of the stage of information gathering it’s kind of So there are a number of cognitive biases involved up talk about a couple of them, but.

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Gleb Tsipursky: This is what we’re seeing we’re seeing people fail to gather data and what’s happening here and we can talk about the actual data, so there is a lot of external data about what employees want.

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Gleb Tsipursky: But the cognitive biases involved here, there are a couple of cognitive biases involved in failing together good data, one of these cognitive biases is called the false consensus effect.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Now come devices for those who who checked out my previous episode with Jason and if you haven’t make sure to go back to listen to this previous episode.

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Gleb Tsipursky: cognitive biases other dangerous judgment errors, we make because of how our brains wired.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Our brain our intuitions are gut reactions were taught to go with our gut that’s really bad idea.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Because I got as wide for the savannah environment, not the modern world, and this event environment we live in small tribes of 50 people 250 people.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And we had to rely on very quick snap judgments, the fight or flight response, also known as the saber tooth tiger response.

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Gleb Tsipursky: We had to jump out of hundred shadows to get away from that one saber tooth tiger that was great for this event environment not very good for the modern environment.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So right now with tribalism is a fundamental issue here, the one of the cognitive biases that comes from that evolutionary that.

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Gleb Tsipursky: pattern mental patterns is called the false consensus effect the false consensus effect it’s where we believe that those people who are part of our tribe share our values and predispositions.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And so the leaders of the top of whether it’s you know, Google, or you know mom and pop hundred people manufacturing company.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Those are the they believe they feel their gut intuition tells them that their employees have similar beliefs to them.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And even if those employees kind of say that well I prefer to stay at home.

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Gleb Tsipursky: The people at the top still feel that these employees, you know once they start the coming in that they’ll come in they’ll forget about their desire to stay at home.

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Gleb Tsipursky: that’s the feeling of the top leaders and leaders tend to go with your gut tend to follow their intuition, because that’s what they’re told by top gurus like Tony robbins.

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Gleb Tsipursky: which tells you to be prime or be savage you know go with your intuition that’s really bad advice, because we’re seeing very clearly from the top communications from.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Amazon from Google from apple from uber from some of the other companies that employees are residing in mass.

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Gleb Tsipursky: and employee engagement is taking a huge hit that’s costing companies billions of dollars.

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Gleb Tsipursky: To their bottom lines, this is a huge huge problem so that’s kind of one dimension, the false consensus effect another one, is how information is gathered.

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Gleb Tsipursky: I mentioned that only 44% of these CEOs gathered information from their employees for surveys.

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Gleb Tsipursky: What they did do they, the ones who didn’t gather employee information, and this is from my conversations with folks is overwhelmingly the CEO talk to the C suite.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So the you know chief technology officer chief operating officer chief risk officer chief operations officer chief human resources officer and then those folks talk to their senior VP.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And that’s all so think about these are people who had the same sort of personality career wise they spent 30 years there’s their leaders, they have long careers.

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Gleb Tsipursky: they’re spent 30 years in in office environments they’re successful because of these in office environments they’re used to them that’s what they’re comfortable in.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So they tell the leader, the CEO what they feel that, yes, we need to go back to the office, this is the right thing to do.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And this is cognitive biases called the confirmation bias, where we look for information that confirms our beliefs.

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Gleb Tsipursky: and ignore information that doesn’t So this is the false consensus effect and the confirmation bias are two really big problems in how we gather information.

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Gleb Tsipursky: about going to the office and making the right decisions about boss pandemic worker insurance, and this is separate from that what the actual data so shows, but I want to get awareness of the cognitive biases.

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Jason Mefford: we’re because it seems like I mean at the at the top, we have a huge disconnect you know, and I used to find this a lot when I would do different surveys in companies usually around ethics and compliance kind of stuff but.

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Jason Mefford: What the top leadership thought or what their beliefs were was usually dramatically different from the rest of the organization.

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Jason Mefford: And so there’s this huge disconnect right, and so I think I saw some of this and you’re going to know the numbers better than me obviously from doing all the research but.

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Jason Mefford: But I want to say it was something that I read show that the 70 to 80% of CEOs at first said nope we’re all coming back into the office right because, like you said.

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Jason Mefford: they’ve got that false consensus of fact they’ve got their confirmation bias, it says no, this is how we’ve done business, this is how we’re going to continue to to do business, this is how i’m comfortable being a leader right.

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Jason Mefford: And so that was their perception, but the employees completely different right on their take and so that’s why again some of these huge companies, especially those CEOs that said something early on, or having to go back and eat their words.

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Jason Mefford: At this point and say MIA culpa I was wrong.

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Jason Mefford: Right we’re going to do something, and so I know that you know, one of the first parts in the book talks about what employee ease really want and to me, this is one of the most fascinating things because, like you said a lot of people are starting to leave.

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Gleb Tsipursky: yeah.

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Jason Mefford: These organizations right and so it’s it’s you know leadership tip everybody right if you’re a leader.

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Jason Mefford: easiest thing to do is actually ask your employees what they want right because oh my gosh imagine that right that we actually get feedback from our employees so.

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Jason Mefford: So what what is the research kind of saying what do employees actually want because I think we’re going to see how this you know ties into how these things are unfolding for us as well.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Yes, so asking please what they want is very important, and like I mentioned only 40 to 40% of CEOs did so, but also you want to think about how you ask some companies, and I saw this is literal question is how excited are you about going back to the office.

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Jason Mefford: Not all right, this is.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Not the kind of this is an obviously very loaded question that employees are not going to be willing to answer, honestly, so in my book.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Returning the office and leading hybrid and remote teams in the appendix I have a survey questionnaire that you can adapt.

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Gleb Tsipursky: For yourself, for your company for doing that, but you want to be thinking about how you ask don’t ask them in a loaded manner that will clearly bias stands so that’s kind of the first thing I want to mention.

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Gleb Tsipursky: But let’s go to the data so where’s this data coming from it’s coming from a Meta analysis I did, which is an analysis of number of surveys research surveys of.

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Gleb Tsipursky: What employees actually want and these surveys are coming from organizations like the Harvard Business School.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Obviously procedures independent society for human resource management so very autonomous you know not taking the game Microsoft.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Which is really helpful because it has internal data from Microsoft teams of how people work, and also from linkedin because Microsoft owns linkedin of how what people are intending to do what kind of you know.

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Gleb Tsipursky: leaving their positions looking for new positions so that that is the kind of surveys i’m talking about so Meta analysis of these eight surveys shows that.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Over two thirds of all employees who work remotely in the pandemic that.

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Gleb Tsipursky: This is the people are focusing on and, of course, about 50% of all employees were able to work remotely during the pandemic so office workers are various sorts.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Other two thirds of these folks want and expect to work from home half the time or more permanently, so this is over that amount.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Usually from in most surveys it’s kind of over 80% from the service or the lower so 70 to 80% of them want to work from home have at least half a time or more permanent permanently.

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Gleb Tsipursky: anywhere from a quarter to a third one, to work remotely full time.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So only something like 20% want to go back to the office 15 to 20% want to go back to the office Monday through Friday nine to five, this is employees.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Interestingly, depending on the survey, and this was from the Society for human resource management, this is something that they have no stake and whether people are going back in the office or not just managing the human resources.

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Gleb Tsipursky: What the survey showed there one of the questions is that about 50% I think that was actually 55% and that survey showed that people would be willing to look for a new job if they weren’t given.

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Gleb Tsipursky: The option of sufficient flexibility, but the kind of flexibility they want in their job, so this is really serious so then we know that.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Most employees see telework and flexibility as a key benefit so from the surveys they’re seeing telework saying that this telework work from home flexibility of their work schedules is very, very, very important to them.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And, on average, they would be willing to sacrifice and the circle across all surveys 8% of their earnings, to have the kind of schedule that they want.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And, of course, people who want to work full time remotely would be willing to sacrifice even more of their salary so we’re seeing very people are willing to put their.

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Gleb Tsipursky: money where their mouth is they’re willing to give up quite a bit of.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Now.

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Jason Mefford: No, no, I was, I was just going to interject there, because as you’re throwing those numbers out right, so I mean These are big numbers it’s lots of people.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Yes.

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Jason Mefford: they’re willing to take a lower salary, so any of you see if those that are listening.

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Jason Mefford: don’t think of this as a way to start trying to cut your costs either right you’re you’re already going to cut your costs by have a lower offices so don’t go through, and think you’re going to just slash everybody salary as a result of this, but.

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Jason Mefford: right but It just shows that’s a data point that shows how serious people are about this.

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Jason Mefford: Right, because the end this isn’t something that it’s like oh it’d be nice right, I mean people are literally over 50% or 50% of people are willing to quit their job.

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Jason Mefford: If you don’t let them work from home or give them some flexible arrangement right, yes, you know all these people that are willing to take a pay cut.

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Jason Mefford: You know, in order to be able to do that so it’s not just a nice to have thing I mean this is something that’s like serious that you’ve got to pay attention to.

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Jason Mefford: Because your employees are serious about this so just wanted to kind of emphasize that again and not have people think oh great now I can I can cut my payroll costs by 8% no don’t be a Dick to your employees right.

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Jason Mefford: But it just it should show you how.

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Jason Mefford: Important this is to people.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Right, where this becomes relevant is in the things you shouldn’t you certainly shouldn’t cut current called current employee salaries, but.

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Gleb Tsipursky: If you want to be thinking about this in future bonuses and you can be very explicit that saying well people who work full time remotely.

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Gleb Tsipursky: should expect to get less salary increases and should not get the same cost of living increases if they moved, so this is where you want to be thinking you also want to be thinking future hires for people who are.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Who are resigning from companies like Google and Amazon, and so many other companies, you will be able to get them at the lower rate.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Of the if you will offer them substantial flexibility and especially fully remote work, you know other sorts of flexibility, you will be able to get them at a much lower I mean imagine if somebody you know.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Google, if you need some talented tech people and the Google engineer moved to Montana, and would like to live in the middle of rural Montana.

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Gleb Tsipursky: The salary that they would request, they would like would be much smaller, for then if they lived in Silicon Valley and came to the office so that’s the kind of things you want to be thinking about when you’re thinking about cost savings.

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Jason Mefford: A good point well, and so you know I know we talked we already talked about a couple of.

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Jason Mefford: comfort confirmation biases that the leaders have, but I know there was another one that we talked about before we started hitting hit record here to.

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Jason Mefford: That, I think you know around kind of this illusion of control sort of thing to that I think is is important, here again, you know for the leaders to be thinking about so.

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Jason Mefford: it’s a big deal your employees want it, there can be some cost savings, you know, like you said if somebody chooses to move to Montana.

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Jason Mefford: Well, great maybe I don’t need to pay him $150,000 now like I did in Silicon Valley, maybe I can pay them 120 or 100 they still have a better quality of life.

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Jason Mefford: right with that lower salary, because they live in such a.

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Jason Mefford: lower cost of living place right, so there are some opportunities there plus they’re going to they’re going to be happier right but.

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Jason Mefford: You know I know that you know.

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Jason Mefford: I just wanted to talk about illusion of control a.

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Jason Mefford: little bit because.

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Jason Mefford: Because I think this is one is i’ve talked to leaders that they they feel like they can control and they can put their thumb on people.

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Jason Mefford: and feel like they’re really in control, but are they really and i’m guessing, the answer is no, because it’s a cognitive bias and it’s called illusion of control right.

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Jason Mefford: So what what what does that mean because, again, a lot of the people who are leaders listening to this are probably going to be like.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t I don’t have that well, you probably do so pay attention okay.

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Gleb Tsipursky: yep, and this has to do with productivity so let’s start positioning this by the data and productivity.

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Gleb Tsipursky: People in the surveys reported they’re much more productive over 75% 75 to 80% report that they’re equally or more productive working remotely than working in the office.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And that’s kind of their self reporting, we also have data from internal data from slack and from Microsoft teams.

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Gleb Tsipursky: That they’re more productive when they’re working from home, then when they’re working from the office, we also have peer review data from a number of individual studies, looking at productivity in certain companies.

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Gleb Tsipursky: shown that people are more productive at home than they are in the office, which is you know not surprising when you think about it.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Because in the home they don’t have nearly as many distractions as they have in the office that’s kind of one really nice thing they can set up their environment to be maximally comfortable.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Rather than you know the environment that you have to put up with in the office, and they also don’t have to face the.

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Gleb Tsipursky: commute you know, an hour they’re in traffic and an hour they’re back of unpaid Labor, this is one of the reasons you know this combination of reasons, especially the last one people that’s one of the biggest complaints.

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Gleb Tsipursky: In fact I think commuting is the biggest complaint people have about returning to the office and unpaid Labor that they do in commuting.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And so they overall work 20 hours more per month, if you work full time remotely and so their productivity overall is 10 to 14% greater if they work remotely.

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Gleb Tsipursky: that’s that productivity, and especially in their individual tasks we can talk about separately under collaborative tasks, there are some.

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Gleb Tsipursky: More ambiguity there, but then there are individual tasks they’re incredibly more productive and if they work at home.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Now springing from that leaders tend to feel that once somebody that they really like seeing people in the office, because they feel like they have oversight over these people.

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Gleb Tsipursky: They can go around they can see these people working, we can see these people engaging.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And that’s what leaders tend to feel that makes them very comfortable in their gut you know talking about their gut reactions intuitions their gut tells them that that’s the right way of working.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Where they can go around and check in and people check out what people are doing that’s what they feel now, unfortunately, when we look at actual observational studies of what happens in the workplace.

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Gleb Tsipursky: The Monday through Friday nine to five separate is there for 40 hours you know lunch hour for an you know, an hour it’s a 35 hours.

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Gleb Tsipursky: How much time do they actually spend working is the question when we look at their actual observational studies of how much time people spend working it’s less than 20 hours.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Less than 20 hours, why is that well when you as the big boss are coming by Of course they perform working Of course they quickly you know go and you know go to the spreadsheet and do look like they’re working.

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Gleb Tsipursky: But the reality of how they spend their time plenty of time is spent on personal there’s a reason that Amazon gets most of its business during the workday.

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Jason Mefford: Because people are shopping when they’re supposed to be working right.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Exactly social media, you know all of this other stuff people spend their time distracted on social media all of these other things when they are supposed to be quote unquote working.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And so, this is a huge fundamental misconception and blind spot called the illusion of control where people, especially people in leadership positions, but all of us.

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Gleb Tsipursky: have an illusion that we are in control of more things and we actually are especially of other people, but our environment as well.

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Gleb Tsipursky: We actually have much less control, then we tend to feel we do and leaders have much less control over their employees and they tend to feel they do.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And if the leaders try to exert more control employees often feel resentful and often actor or.

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Gleb Tsipursky: often try to undermine this control and any experience leader i’m sure no some stories examples of this sort of thing happening, where you’re trying to force someone and employees kind of you know back.

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Gleb Tsipursky: lashing out against you, because of that this is a big problem this illusion of control that causes leaders to want their employees to go back to the office.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Whereas the simple fundamental completely counterintuitive reality is that employees are much more productive.

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Gleb Tsipursky: If they’re calm and do you as a leader, do you care about them being in the office or do you care about them being productive do you care about your personal comfort.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And gut reactions and feeling that this is the right way of doing things, or do you care about how much they’re producing for the company’s bottom line.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So this is a fundamental issue that’s going on this illusion of control it combines with another client device, I want to highlight called the status quo bias.

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Gleb Tsipursky: The status quo bias that relates to us wanting to get back to what we feel is the right status quo and leaders feel the January 2020.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Is the right status quo that that was the right environment that felt good to them, they felt in their gut reactions that that was the right thing to do the right way to work together.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And then, trying to just turn back the clock and it’s kind of a natural understood understandable feeling we want to turn back the clock, we want to go back to those idyllic days before the fantastic, and you know what.

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Gleb Tsipursky: will never go back to January 2020 I hate to disappoint you, but will never go back to January 2020 the pandemic has fundamentally disrupted our reality and shifted the perceptions of employees who now know.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Very comfortably know that they can get their work done completely remote fully remotely they can they’ve spent over a year doing their workflow remotely they know they can do it.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And that there is no reason for them to do the unpaid Labor of going in the commute and there is no reason for them to you know put their fake smiles on when they create their colleagues.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And so many people do and i’ve heard so many complaints from employees, of course, some people genuinely want to see their teammates but the.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Plenty that i’ve seen and i’ve talked to really are putting on fake smiles This is especially applicable, and this is really important, I want you to pay attention.

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Gleb Tsipursky: To diversity inclusion diversity inclusion, when we look at service, so there was a survey of knowledge workers specifically of.

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Gleb Tsipursky: office knowledge workers, you know everyone from tech to auditors to people who have expertise professional expertise.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And what it found was that knowledge workers out of all knowledge workers when you look at the statistics 20% of white knowledge workers want to go back to the office full time Monday through Friday nine to five so 80%.

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Gleb Tsipursky: that’s 20% of them do when you look at black knowledge workers only 3% of them want to go back to the office full time.

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Gleb Tsipursky: 3%, why is that when they’re doing in depth interviews with those folks, the answer is that they face every day they face micro aggressions discrimination in the office.

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Gleb Tsipursky: They feel those micro aggressions have a face, and this applies not simply to black but to people who would disabilities that people with various categories of discrimination, who are facing discrimination.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And over this year that they’ve been working over a year they’ve been working full time remotely.

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Gleb Tsipursky: They have faced much less discrimination and still there’s still some digital discrimination bullying going on, especially with being interrupted during.

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Gleb Tsipursky: The meetings when people in minority positions tend to be interrupted more but.

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Gleb Tsipursky: It overall was much better for minorities, so for diversity inclusion, whether it’s black people Hispanic people, people with disabilities, it has equalized them to their white male colleagues.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Because you know just see those faces and zoom screen and oftentimes people don’t show their faces.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So it’s much more equal and there’s much less discrimination and that helps people have a much better experience.

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Gleb Tsipursky: and perform much better, so if you’re forcing people to go back to the office.

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Gleb Tsipursky: you’re discriminating against people who are in minority positions and you’ll have a lot more of the leading, which is another reason that Amazon Google.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And uber have reverse their policies because they’ve seen especially lots of black and other minority tech talent, leaving and I can guarantee you if you’re.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Forcing people back to the office you’re going to see more minorities living then you’ll see white people so you’ll become as a workforce less oriented toward diversity inclusion.

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Jason Mefford: So I just want to recap, a couple of those things that you just said, because they’re important, and I want people to make sure they get it right is.

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Jason Mefford: Forcing people back into the office is actually more discriminatory to I mean you those numbers are pretty appalling.

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Jason Mefford: height that that forcing people back is actually discriminating more against minorities or even you know, like you said, people, maybe with physical challenges or other things like that.

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Jason Mefford: allowing them to work remotely is more inclusive it’s more even in a from a playing field standpoint for everybody.

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Jason Mefford: And we proven that people can actually get their work done right.

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Jason Mefford: And then back to back to the you know, the thing about the illusion of control and I wanted to bring up because I.

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Jason Mefford: don’t want people to have skipped over to this because you you threw out some numbers there that are pretty huge which is.

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Jason Mefford: You know if you’re one of those leaders that think that feels like you have control and you have to have them there, so you can walk around like you’re the foreman in the in the in the factory with the whip.

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Jason Mefford: cracking the whip on and to make sure that people are doing their job right.

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Jason Mefford: If that’s the kind of person, you are and what we’ve seen before, is you’re lucky to get 20 hours of work, a week out of those employees that are managed that way.

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Jason Mefford: Now, if you let them work from home you’re going to get if you at all if you only get 20 hours of work out of them.

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Jason Mefford: you’re getting more productivity, then you had when they were in the office, plus the people who are working from home are more efficient, and I think I heard you say that they’re actually working 20 hours a month more.

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Gleb Tsipursky: that’s right yep.

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Jason Mefford: Then, when they were in the office so it’s like holy shit I mean all of a sudden you’re getting.

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Jason Mefford: A double whammy right they’re actually giving you more hours they’re more productive in those hours as well, so.

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Jason Mefford: You don’t have to be standing over somebody cracking the whip for them to be productive, in fact, if you’re that kind of LEADER you’re probably getting less productivity, out of your workers, then you should be and you’re the problem so quit doing it let a lot of work from home right.

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Jason Mefford: So so let’s let’s go, you know because I know I could I can geek out on this stuff and just keep going and going and going but.

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Jason Mefford: You know the last you know part here to try to wrap up what we can and again go out and get gloves book, because all the information is here for you folks Okay, but.

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Jason Mefford: You know there’s still seems to be the debate well in in office fully remote hybrid.

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Jason Mefford: what’s really the answer right because again we’ve got a lot of people that are taking sides in this lots of people that think they’re right.

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Jason Mefford: But what’s what’s really the practical long term solution because, like you said we’re never going back to January 2020 normal So what is the future going to actually look like.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So, looking at the practical solution, you want to look at the company’s bottom line and how people are most productive.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And what’s going to be the best for your company and for your nonprofit municipality, if you work there, so thinking of that what the research shows is the best approach is a team lead hybrid model with some fully remote options here’s why.

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Gleb Tsipursky: You, as the CEO top leader chief operating officer chief risk officer, you should.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Establish broad guidelines for everyone, but you should let the lower level team leaders decide what’s best for their teams.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Because they know best what’s going on on the ground level and how their team functions, but the criteria, you need to set you need to set brought criteria for them so something like the companies i’ve worked with I worked with both companies or.

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Gleb Tsipursky: To help them adapt to the almost pandemic normal kind of the both covered work arrangements permanent work arrangements of future of work.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And the what they did overwhelmingly is set guidelines of mostly hybrid workforce 123 days a week in the office.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And then the some proportion tend to 30% working full time remotely so that’s what they said, and here is here’s the reason.

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Gleb Tsipursky: You want to make sure that the people who are working in the office that there’s a reason for them to come to the office.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Why the heck should they go for the commute, why are they coming there you know if they’re going in the Community, I can guarantee to you they’re spending less time and we have extensive research proving this.

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Gleb Tsipursky: That people when they go in the Community feel like they’re working there.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And that actually work going to work less time for you, so you need to have a reason for them to come into the office, the only reason for people to come into the office is to do collaborative tasks.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Because collaborative tasks some collaborative tasks, especially the more intense ones are better done in the Office for most people, not all.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So collaborative so you want to look at collaborative tasks for them to do.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Now there’s some benefit to team culture to coming into the offices as well, one day a week or something or one day, every couple of weeks, but the crucial thing that you that the Forum, the reasoning of the company.

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Gleb Tsipursky: is making is that a collaborative tasks now if the people are not doing if it’s just a team, where everyone is doing their own individual thing like sales people.

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Gleb Tsipursky: There and they’re not collaborating together they don’t need to come into the office that there’s absolutely no reason for them to come to the office.

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Gleb Tsipursky: If they are collaborating together, and if they need to work things out then there’s a reason for them to come into the office so that’s kind of the 123 day week.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And the team leaders should make decisions based on that principle with the caveat that if they have TEAM members who are quite successful at working individually.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Who are quite successful working full time remotely and if they the team Members really want to work full time remote like to encourage the team leaders to allow those TEAM members.

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Gleb Tsipursky: To work full time remotely because otherwise you’re likely to lose them so homeless Rico.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Unless they have to do a lot of intensive collaborative work together strongly encouraged team leaders to allow those folks to work full time remotely.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So that’s the breakdown and you’ll get that sort of breakdown and that’s what we’ve seen a number of successful companies like target and so on, that are returning people there.

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Gleb Tsipursky: That are returning people to the office and those dynamics and some companies like nationwide I mean nationwide is a huge insurance companies founded very old very traditional founded in 1926.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Some of the departments and nationwide are permanent postponed encouragements 75% of the workforce is working full time remotely.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So it’s, as you know, this is not only tech companies, as all sort of company all sorts of companies so once you have those decisions.

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Gleb Tsipursky: What you want to do is think about what your office will look like your office should not look like the previous office that was.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Because people are in the office will be working overwhelmingly on collaborative tasks, not their individual tasks.

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Gleb Tsipursky: They will not need their individual cubicles because they won’t be working on their individual tasks.

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Gleb Tsipursky: You want to set up some kind of hard asking, so people in between their meetings with TEAM members can pop in, and you know work for an hour to.

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Gleb Tsipursky: But they really won’t be you know if the most people what will happen is they’ll come in for half a day on to meet with their team and do some collaborative work and go home.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Not doing any of the individual work in the office they’ll just be doing that individual work at home.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So that’s going to be important for you to revise your office space to be much more collaboratively oriented from what’s previously the usual orientation is 80%.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Personal space and 20% collaborative it should be reversed around 20% personal space, you know some offices left for top leaders who are leaders who need to have closed door meetings private meetings.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And the rest should be a little bit of hot desk in sort of arrangements, the rest should be conference rooms, with good video technology equipment.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And informal lounge spaces for people to collaborate together and also so once you look at how.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Much how many people are coming in, if you’re seeing that let’s say an average you have people coming in one day a week, you know, some people working full time remotely some people coming in two days a week.

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Gleb Tsipursky: On average one day a week, that means your occupancy for the office is going to be much less than bleep endemic.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So this is a wonderful opportunity for you to save on real estate costs.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And pretty huge savings, you probably need something like 10 to 30% of your real estate just for fundamental things like.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Officers accounting side of stuff like that the rest of it 80% or so, is based on occupancy.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And if you have your occupancy is 20% of what it was prior to the pandemic, you can probably get rid of most of that office space, maybe keep 40% of what you had before the epidemic.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And that will be a great cost savings for you, which you should use to help employees from their home offices, because I can tell you a lot of people don’t have a good Home Office setup.

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Gleb Tsipursky: They have you know the maybe the laptop is good enough, but there are microphones are bad their video cameras are bad.

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Gleb Tsipursky: The lighting is bad they’re not ergonomic furniture, this is permanent stuff there permanently going to be working in four and a half days.

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Gleb Tsipursky: For home if they’re coming in, hybrid one day have a week and you know you have 20% of them are working full time remotely.

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Gleb Tsipursky: You want to set up them in comfortable offices to maximize their productivity and remember you know ergonomic furniture helps them but video cameras microphones help their TEAM members.

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Gleb Tsipursky: So you want to help their TEAM members be effective communicators so that’s really important.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And we’re talking about productivity something that’s really critical here is to change your performance evaluation system so.

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Gleb Tsipursky: This is really important, if you want to make sure that people that you adapt successfully to a hybrid first model with some fully remote options that means that your productivity, should not be based on how much time you see somebody working.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Which is honestly the typical way that people evaluate in those quarterly or even the one time began your performance evaluation.

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Gleb Tsipursky: You want to change that change that from based on amount of time spent working and observed working to deliverables what kind of deliverables is somebody doing what kind of accomplishments do they have.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And instead of having that quarterly or annual performance evaluation deliverables based performance evaluation should be done every week, where every week, you have a brief meeting the as the team leader has a big meeting with the TEAM members.

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Gleb Tsipursky: 15 to 30 minutes, where the team Member sends an advanced report, you know, a couple of paragraphs and their top accomplishments three to five top accomplishments.

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Gleb Tsipursky: challenges they faced how they solve them their plans for next week’s top accomplishments and then a self evaluation.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And the Leader than meets with them and talks about the accomplishments maybe coaches on solving problems better agrees or revises on next week’s activities and then agrees or revises that performance evaluation.

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Gleb Tsipursky: or their self evaluation, which show gets field fed back into our continuous promotion and evaluation system, and that is a much, much better way of evaluating people’s performance in our new normal that’s going to be hybrid first.

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Jason Mefford: Well yeah cuz you’re right it’s it’s the there’s a lot of stuff to consider here right.

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Jason Mefford: And, and you know going, because I know, one of the questions that a lot of times leaders will ask me as well, how do I manage my staff at this point right.

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Jason Mefford: And yeah you know typically we’ve done, you know quarterly evaluations, you know, and this, you know switching to something like weekly performance evaluations as much better right.

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Jason Mefford: And again, I mean there’s there’s been companies that have been doing this for a long time that’s how they that’s how they do it right, I mean you, you have to be intentional.

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Jason Mefford: As a leader, which means you’re probably going to have some standing meetings once a week, you know, maybe short meetings, maybe they’re only 15 minutes, with each of your people, but that way there’s a check in right and and again like you said we’ve got to probably change.

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Jason Mefford: What it means to perform yes right hours in the office isn’t the best way to determine whether somebody is productive it’s more about output so we’re going to have to be a little a little.

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Jason Mefford: You know, innovative and thinking about well what, how can we measure output, because, again I know some jobs is going to be harder to know how can I, you know evaluate their output.

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Jason Mefford: But it’s something that we got to do, and I think you know again you didn’t hit on this directly but you know the whole idea to I think that.

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Jason Mefford: If you if, and again like you said most companies are probably going to go to a hybrid with some people being allowed to completely or full time work from home.

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Jason Mefford: So again, you just want to be careful that we’re not being discriminatory or exclusive to certain people as well right is that.

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Jason Mefford: don’t let some of your cognitive biases come in of out of sight out of mind, I never see him I don’t joke with them so they must not be performing as well.

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Jason Mefford: Right and really be clear on there’s no preferential treatment, you know people that come into the office full time or that come in part time.

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Jason Mefford: they’re not necessarily doing a better job you know because, again, this could open you up to some huge discrimination suits going forward.

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Jason Mefford: Especially if the data shows that people who come into the office, on average, get better performance evaluations and those who who choose not to.

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Jason Mefford: write because, again, there may be that one of those unconscious biases that you could be discriminating against people, not because of the color of their skin or religion or ethnic background, but you know.

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Jason Mefford: The choice that they have of not wanting to come into the office at that makes them a little bit different.

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Jason Mefford: than the people who are there, that you might think are the team players, because they’re coming in right.

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Jason Mefford: So again, you got to be careful, be careful of that as well, but I think that’s that’s one of those just going to be a lot of work and trying to come up with new ways of kind of calculating and tracking performance.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And absolutely right and that’s specifically why the performance evaluation needs to be weekly and needs to based on accomplishments because.

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Gleb Tsipursky: it’s very clear for the Leader okay here are the agreed upon accomplishments because each week you agree with the team Member what her or his accomplishments will be for the subsequent when week.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Then you could see that they perform how well they perform these accomplishments.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And then there’s a evaluation of their performance, which you discuss with them, and you coach them on how to do better if they needed so that.

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Gleb Tsipursky: equalizes the situation for everyone who is coming in, or not coming in, and then you can easily track and see whether someone is doing better in their performance.

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Gleb Tsipursky: But they’re not getting as good evaluations well that’s a serious problem, and so, that is, it addresses the problem by having that performance evaluation system setup effectively yeah.

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Jason Mefford: This is really good good stuff glad, thank you for coming on and sharing, because I know you know, like I said i’ve been seeing some of this stuff anecdotally so it’s nice to now have.

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Jason Mefford: You know your analysis and information from these studies that show this is really what’s happening, this really is a big issue.

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Jason Mefford: You know you gotta do it and you got to figure out how to get it done so so yeah go out good good gloves book returning to the office and leading hybrid and remote teams it’s going to give you a lot of information.

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Jason Mefford: about it, and obviously I know from the sounds of you’ve been helping organizations do this, too, so you actually do help companies kind of navigate through this.

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Jason Mefford: For them, as well, because it’s it’s new to all of us right so so again it’s it’s don’t don’t get stuck in that status quo bias and think no damn it it’s going to be the same way that it was just embrace the change and be a leader and figure out figure out how to get it done yep.

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Gleb Tsipursky: you’re absolutely right and we do have some experience from elsewhere pandemic situations, not in the US.

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Gleb Tsipursky: Which is there are, so there are some best practices developed which I bring into my consulting work with companies on how, what are the best practices that other countries have seen.

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Gleb Tsipursky: On going back to the office, and so we do know that there are ways of getting it done it’s just that it’s never happened in the US.

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Gleb Tsipursky: And folks don’t have it as part of their background and part of their knowledge system, so we know it can be done, we know that our best practices, we know it can be effectively accomplished.

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Gleb Tsipursky: But mostly the vast majority of leaders just don’t have the information on the basis and that’s why I wrote the book returning the office and leading hybrid and remote teams.

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Jason Mefford: Well, thanks club i’m sure we’ll have to have you back again because I always love our conversations.

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Gleb Tsipursky: happy to thank you thanks.

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Thanks.

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