E172: Bouncing Ideas off Others to Reduce Dangerous Self-Talk and Paranoia with Hal Garyn

We’re going to be talking about how sometimes we get stuck in some “self-talk” and how talking with other people and getting outside input can lead you to answers that are actually helpful to you!

Hal Garyn will be joining us for this podcast to also shed some light onto what many CAEs have been telling him regarding what they have been going through.

Not only are a lot of people becoming a little more insecure due to the covid lockdown, but some of these echo chamber type situations can lead to a bit of paranoia seeping it’s way into our work field.

Listen in at: https://www.jasonmefford.com/jammingwithjason/

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Welcome to another episode of jamming with Jason hey today we’re going to be talking about how sometimes we get stuck in some self talk in our head.

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Jason Mefford: And how sometimes it’s just a great idea to bounce ideas off of other people, and what you’re going to find out as we talk today, the more that you get out of your head.

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Jason Mefford: and actually start bouncing ideas off of other people you’re going to get the answers that you need and i’m excited to be talking with my friend, how about this So here we go.

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Jason Mefford: All right, how.

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Jason Mefford: Are you jack good to be back.

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Jason Mefford: This is, this is one of those topics, you know self talk bouncing ideas off of others and.

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Jason Mefford: I talked to myself a lot.

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Hal Garyn: Though I always say it’s not a problem unless you answer yourself.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and it’s in it’s.

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Jason Mefford: In this is an interesting topic, and one of the reasons I mean honestly why I do talk to myself out loud.

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Jason Mefford: Is because sometimes when we just get stuck in our head thinking thinking thinking thinking sometimes actually verbalizing it whether that’s even to ourselves, but especially to other people.

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Jason Mefford: about how important and valuable that really is because literally sometimes.

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Jason Mefford: As I open my mouth and say something it’s like boom there comes the answer right and i’ve been i’ve been thinking about this, maybe for two days right so.

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Jason Mefford: So let’s let’s jump in and talk about it because I know as we were talking you’ve kind of seen this from some of the leaders that you’ve talked to as well right and maybe why now is even a little bit.

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Jason Mefford: Why it’s even more important now to talk about this so so kind of take it away and let’s let’s get the conversation going.

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Hal Garyn: yeah and some one on one conversations that i’ve had with CES as we’ve gotten deeper and deeper into the pandemic and the resultant work from home work remotely.

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Hal Garyn: You know what’s happened is i’m hearing more and more self doubt creep in to either what people say or how they say it.

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Hal Garyn: And they are the same individual they’ve been with the same level of confidence so as i’ve tried to think well what really is going on, and then I think about myself working from home as much as I have, over the last you know 10 plus months we spend more time lately in our heads.

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Hal Garyn: You know, it was much more convenient in a physical work environment to go if something just didn’t feel right didn’t sound right you needed someone to bounce an idea off of.

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Hal Garyn: You didn’t get a response to that email and you’re really you’re curious as to why you got up you’ll walk down the hall, you had a chat with appear.

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Hal Garyn: about something in the organization that was going on, and you had some self reinforcement yeah i’ve seen that too.

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Hal Garyn: And now we’re not having those conversations as much it’s a lot harder than getting up and walking down the hall or hey hey you got a minute I gotta bounce an idea off of you.

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Hal Garyn: Now it is well, I really don’t want to schedule a zoom meeting with them because i’m sure they’re busy, and seems really intrusive to send them a text.

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Hal Garyn: And so.

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Hal Garyn: So you sit there and stew about stuff and when you do about stuff usually it’s turns into self reflection which turns into self doubt.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, well and so maybe.

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Jason Mefford: Maybe let’s kind of go down a path of kind of explaining An example of this.

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Jason Mefford: right because because again i’m thinking.

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Jason Mefford: You know, some people might be sitting there gone well I don’t I don’t know if i’m doing that or not right again self doubt already creeping in, but, but what is this.

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Jason Mefford: But what does this kind of look like, because you know, in one way it kind of sounds a little oxymoron nickel that i’m still confident, but now i’m doubting myself more so, what is, what does that kind of look like you know.

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Jason Mefford: What will you know it will be exactly.

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Hal Garyn: i’ve read i’ve seen some articles recently and it’s showing up more about.

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Hal Garyn: leadership and paranoia.

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Hal Garyn: and

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Hal Garyn: As a leader, you have developed a set of you’ve developed a capability of being confident exuding confidence or, if necessary.

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Hal Garyn: faking confidence because sometimes you’re not confident but you’ve learned how to do it and you carry yourself that way throughout the organization.

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Hal Garyn: But as we’ve spent more time isolated no yes we’re having meetings we’re interacting with our staff we’re interacting with the organization.

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Hal Garyn: But it’s not the same, we still spending more time in our heads thinking about things, and so the example A good example is and i’m sure we’ve all done it recently I know why have you send an email to someone that you normally get a fairly quick response from.

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Hal Garyn: And now you didn’t and you start to wonder, well, I wonder if everything’s okay with them, I wonder if, maybe there.

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Hal Garyn: They didn’t maybe they didn’t like the way I phrased it and you start running down this rabbit hole, I wonder if they’re mad at me, I wonder if they’re intentionally ignoring me.

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Hal Garyn: And then you know what that happened with the other that other person and I sent my boss, a text because he said it was fine instead of a text and been two days I didn’t get a response.

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Hal Garyn: When we were all in a physical office environment we felt we were, we would address those things more proactively.

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Hal Garyn: If we felt that we needed to interact with someone in the mode of communication that was the expected mode of communication didn’t work, even though it worked in the past, we tried another one.

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Hal Garyn: Now it feels intrusive it’s not as comfortable it’s not as easy, and so we start getting these gears in our head going and it’s that self talk and self talk, while it can be positive, is generally negative.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well.

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Hal Garyn: We start to connect dots that may or may not exist.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and it’s interesting because part part of that goes back to our brain neurology right in the fact that.

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Jason Mefford: On average, our subconscious brain particular activating system in the back of the brain is programmed to look for or sees three times as much negative or fear based things than positive right so.

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Jason Mefford: So we’re looking for the negative to try to protect us, and so it’s interesting you know, like you said when we feel isolated and it’s just now, our thoughts.

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Jason Mefford: On average we’re probably having three times as many negative thoughts, so it, we have to be intentional.

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Jason Mefford: about trying to be more positive, because if we don’t then all of a sudden, like you said we start going down this rabbit hole and.

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Jason Mefford: Oh well, maybe they didn’t like the way I worded that Oh well, did I did I make him mad you know because of something else I said or.

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Jason Mefford: You know, in all of a sudden, you start going down all these things and it’s interesting because you were you were talking about leadership and paranoia and if we think about.

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Jason Mefford: You know paranoid people from a psychological perspective, a lot of times those people are isolated or isolate themselves.

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Jason Mefford: And again, like you said when we’re in in that isolation right there’s a reason why they have solitary confinement in prison right.

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Jason Mefford: it’s hell, to be in there only with your thoughts and no stimulation stimulation around you that it’s a form of punishment.

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Jason Mefford: In the in the criminal justice system and effectively now how many of us are isolated, you know in our in our environment work from home, you know, whatever kind of thing and we don’t realize that we’re actually punishing ourselves.

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Jason Mefford: without realizing it right, and so that can lead to like you said, some of these these paranoid.

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Jason Mefford: thoughts that we have.

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Hal Garyn: yeah and and and and you know as much as I think you know.

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Hal Garyn: Anybody who’s leading in robotic function and and and and functioning as the chief audit executive if they were truly honest with themselves.

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Hal Garyn: have gone down these rabbit holes themselves, but if not, you know if I if you go look it up that’s not me, let me guarantee you your staff members are.

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Hal Garyn: yeah and how you help them how you manage them and how you help them through.

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Hal Garyn: These feelings of isolation, the self talk, you know and there’s there are clues.

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Hal Garyn: Think about how you might go down those paths yourselves and how you pull yourself out of it.

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Hal Garyn: and help your staff, by how you code look for the clues in them.

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Hal Garyn: Like I said, you know when you first when we first started this conversation Jason I said i’m hearing it, even though they may not be actually saying and the conversations i’m having with other cities, the self doubt creeping in.

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Hal Garyn: Listen, for the clues and your staff and help them through it, because if they don’t get the help, some of them, not all of them will go further and further down.

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Hal Garyn: A certain path of self doubt and self reflection.

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Hal Garyn: That may or may not be healthy it’s a function of the work environment worrying and whenever a return to work.

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Hal Garyn: Whatever return to work looks like it’s still going to have a much, much higher component of remote.

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Hal Garyn: people working in team, yet in isolation.

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Hal Garyn: um and, like it or not, you know we’re, not only do we have to coach ourselves, although I would highly recommend every cae get a coach.

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Hal Garyn: Get coached because everybody needs that place to talk that safe place to talk to work through things i’ll come back to that in a minute, you know but.

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Hal Garyn: If you want to help your staff as much as we’re not necessarily psychiatrist or psychologist didn’t it comes with the territory and helping your staff be the best they can be.

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Hal Garyn: So listen for the clues and then I said i’ll come back to it.

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Hal Garyn: When you’re in the office when you’re in a physical Office, how many times have you gone to someone else or someone else in the organizations come to you and say hey you gotta admit it.

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Hal Garyn: I need to pick your brain about something right it’s that phrase you know and are we doing that now, are we having those conversations of saying here’s what I think here’s what I see, I am not sure i’m right.

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Hal Garyn: But let me pick your brain on it, those are healthy conversations for our psyches because they either confirm some of that self talk, or they just jar us out of it because somebody tells us how to see something completely differently.

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Jason Mefford: Well, I don’t.

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Hal Garyn: Have those as much anymore.

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Jason Mefford: No, we don’t and it’s it’s it’s funny because, as you were talking about that from the from the paranoia standpoint, there was a.

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Jason Mefford: series that my wife and I were watching and one of the characters was going through some paranoia and so you know it would show in in the in the.

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Jason Mefford: In the show you know kind of what he was perceiving was going on, and so it was just bizarre I mean somebody sitting there watching.

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Jason Mefford: We could tell that he was he’d moved into that paranoia state, but he didn’t recognize it right he couldn’t he couldn’t distinguish what was real and what was not.

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Jason Mefford: And there was a scene, where he was he was sitting in the car with one of his friends.

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Jason Mefford: And so, he starts going off trying to confess, and say all these different things, and this friend said, you know john you’re paranoid.

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Jason Mefford: Right i’ve been doing this for a long time, and I can see that you are you’re paranoid right now.

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Jason Mefford: What you’re seeing is not real right, and so this kind of gets back to that coaching like you said, I mean a lot of people.

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Jason Mefford: You know, we don’t recognize where we’re at until you actually can verbalize and talk to somebody so going to somebody who’s actually trained.

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Jason Mefford: And knows how to do it it’s not a it’s not a pity party, you know kind of a deal but somebody who was actually trained recognizes knows how to help you see those blind spots, how to actually change.

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Jason Mefford: is so so valuable you know, and I think one of the other things as you were talking that I wanted to bring up because we’ve been talking about the isolation.

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Jason Mefford: as individuals, but sometimes to what I what I find so i’m going to kind of throw it back and see if this is what you’ve experienced as well.

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Jason Mefford: But sometimes even small groups of people that are believing maybe or in the same sense of paranoia it becomes like an ECHO chamber.

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Jason Mefford: And so, those people just are kind of feeding on each other and instead of just one person going down the rabbit hole now you’ve got 10 people.

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Jason Mefford: going down the rabbit hole together because there’s no voice of reason there’s no.

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Jason Mefford: You know, and we do this, all the time, because we surround ourselves usually with people that think exactly the same way that we do, and so they reinforce.

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Jason Mefford: Our beliefs, the problem is especially if there’s some of these paranoid.

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Jason Mefford: paranoid thoughts or just false hoods that we’re believing like well know how just because you didn’t respond to me in five minutes from my email doesn’t mean you don’t like me or I did something to piss you off right.

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Jason Mefford: there’s probably other interpretations, but sometimes those ECHO chambers have just as much damage or can do just as much damage as somebody left in individual isolation, I mean, are you seeing the same kind of thing.

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Hal Garyn: Ah yes, but not as much i’ve actually seen the flip side, where you know small groups of individuals that might be CEOs who are in completely disparate industries.

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Hal Garyn: get together on a call in a non typical Roundtable where you know Jason I you know i’ve talked about in the past, you know roundtables are all great but usually.

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Hal Garyn: What cae wants to do is tell all the CFC as they are, how great they are and how, on top of things their their staff is and all the wonderful things they’re doing in their organization.

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Hal Garyn: And what I found is as we’ve got a small groups of CES and disparate industries have gotten together virtually and talked with each other, they aren’t talking about internal audit.

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Hal Garyn: they’re talking about interpersonal executive level challenges they’re facing dealing with people.

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Hal Garyn: um and they all enter the call or the conversation with something that’s really bothering them or really nagging at them, and when you peel it back it’s it’s it’s a interpersonal relationship issue between them and some other person or people in the organization.

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Hal Garyn: And the conversation helps them get through it.

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Hal Garyn: And so, is interesting that to me what i’ve witnessed is those individuals that might be stuck in that self talk.

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Hal Garyn: And I didn’t realize this until a few of these have occurred.

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Hal Garyn: needed the outlet to break them as that thinking.

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Hal Garyn: And whether the group gave them great advice average advice or advice that they go, thank you very much, you know you know and they’re thinking that didn’t help me one bed.

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Hal Garyn: Well, maybe not but, as you were pointing out when you’re doing the self talk when you’re talking out loud to yourself just the ability to talk to others about it, hear what other people had to say on the topic, change your thinking.

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Hal Garyn: about it and gave you a way, whether somebody said something really insightful and you’re going to go do that exactly that, or they said something that just George you’re thinking it’s that old Let me pick your brain.

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Hal Garyn: And I would encourage CA is that you know, and there are opportunities out there, look for opportunities, where you can get together with other CA ease right now it’s virtually.

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Hal Garyn: it’s not a canned Roundtable and we’re going to talk about these exact topics and just talk as peers with each other and help each other through the challenges you’re facing.

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Jason Mefford: cuz it’s amazing, you know as you were talking, and this is.

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Jason Mefford: This has been my experience, you know with a lot of those roundtables I mean a lot of people call them round tables right but it’s to me it just feels like a bunch of gorillas standing around beating their chests.

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Jason Mefford: You know and it’s like it’s it’s so much of a different feel to go to something like that, where egos are still there.

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Jason Mefford: You know people don’t want to talk about what’s really bothering them versus having that safe confidential community.

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Jason Mefford: of people that do actually get to the meat of what’s actually bothering them right because again it’s it’s you know we can superficially.

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Jason Mefford: try to get by or we can actually go in and take care of the root of what the real problem is right, and like you said, most of the time, I mean, at least with most of the executives i’ve worked with.

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Jason Mefford: Most of the issues get back to some interpersonal either relationship or communication issue and how to work through and deal with that deal with themselves deal with their stakeholders deal with their staff.

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Jason Mefford: in a different way right and having those real conversations makes a huge huge difference, I mean i’ve i’ve watched people that were almost literally on the edge of tears.

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Jason Mefford: Right and you just watched them come back almost from the dead, if you will, you know when they finally have some of those epiphanies and just kind of let go some of the stuff that they no longer need to hold on to so.

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Jason Mefford: wow lots lots of great information how appreciate you, you know talking, today, and again, so I mean everybody who’s listening right.

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Jason Mefford: hey it’s it’s it’s a reality, we all get in our head and we all are more isolated than we have been before which again can lead to some of the self talk.

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Jason Mefford: And again, if all your self talk is positive and you’re pumping yourself up it’s like all right, keep doing what you do on.

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Jason Mefford: But if you’re like most people you know, and I would count myself in this that sometimes that self talk can lead us down a rabbit hole that is not very helpful and you know, like we talked about could actually lead to things like paranoia so whatever you do right.

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Jason Mefford: get some help you know get out of the ECHO Chamber get out of that solitary confinement isolation that you’re in.

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Jason Mefford: Start picking people’s brains bounce ideas off of other people if you don’t know where to go reach out to how or me, because we know some places where people where you can go.

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Jason Mefford: Because because, ultimately, whatever you do it’s going to make a huge difference in your life and just like i’ve seen it so many times.

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Jason Mefford: If you’re feeling heavy and you start to talk about it that heaviness starts to go away and you start to feel lighter and you just feel amazing I know i’ve done it myself so.

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Jason Mefford: Good stuff and and I, and I think to you know how thanks for for going here today, because this is one of those things people are afraid to talk about.

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Jason Mefford: So thank you for bringing it up and hopefully again this this helps people and they’ll they’ll reach out and get the help because nobody wants to be paranoid and isolated.

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Jason Mefford: Alright well thanks how.

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Thank you.

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