E170: The Future of Work with Greg Hutchins

With technology rapidly becoming more advanced, along with a rapidly changing economy, what do we as humans bring to the table when it comes to doing work?

Due to this proliferation of technology in the workplace, what kinds of things can you be doing to stay relevant and ahead of this technological curve?

We are joined with Greg Hutchins, an engineer who has been dedicated to studying the future of job markets and the evolution of work.

Get a copy of Greg’s book: Working It Disruption Rules: COVID Edition, on Amazon at: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08X3SBD2F/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i1

Greg Hutchins is the founder of 800Compete.com, WorkingIt.com, CERMAcademy.com, QualityPlusEngineering.com, and other startups. Greg Hutchins is the risk evangelist who coined the expression Future of Quality: Risk®.

Greg’s company, CERMAcademy.com, is the developer of Certified Enterprise Risk Manager® (CERM). CERM is based on the trademarked approach of Risk Based, Problem Solving and Risk Based, Decision Making®. CERM introduced the ERM approach of architecting, designing, deploying, and assuring™ risk controls.

Greg Hutchins PE CERM is also the principal professional engineer Quality + Engineering – international supply and quality management firm. He has written best selling books on global ISO standards and risk management. Greg is the author of ISO 9000 (best selling – translated into 8 languages published through John Wiley), Value Added Auditing, ISO 31000: Enterprise Risk Management, ISO Risk Based Thinking, Risk Based Thinking, Supply Management Strategies (APICS, ISM, ASQ endorsed and used in certifications), and Standard Manual of Quality Auditing and more than a dozen article international books.

Several Hutchins’ books include:

  • Supply Chain Risk Management
  • ISO 31000:2018 Enterprise Risk Management
  • Risk Based Thinking
  • Risk Based Auditing:Using ISO 19011:2018
  • Factory and Sourcing Checklists
  • Value Added Auditing:4th Edition
  • Operational Excellence Handbook:An Enterprise Approach
  • Supply Management Strategies: 3rd Edition

Listen in at: https://www.jasonmefford.com/jammingwithjason/

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: hey everybody, welcome to another episode of jamming with Jason today you’re going to want to listen to this entire episode and why because we’re going to be talking about the future of work.

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Jason Mefford: And whether you realize it or not, work is changing significantly, which means there’s some things you probably need to start doing now to prepare, so that you are ready for the future of work so with that let’s cue the episode.

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Jason Mefford: Well hey Greg It is great to have you with me today, this is one of my my favorite topics, and I think it is for you to talking about the future of work so welcome welcome on to the show.

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Greg Hutchins: hey thanks Jason it’s great to be here and it’s great to meet you too, you know, so we really appreciate it.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well you know, and I know we kind of we ended up hooking up, I think, through a mutual acquaintance right so again, this is where I tell people hey community is important.

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Jason Mefford: here’s an example right we both know the same guy and he’s like hey you two should talk so we talked and here we are right, but.

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Jason Mefford: Maybe just just help people kind of understand a little bit about your background, who you are and why this topic of future of work is something that you’re talking about as well.

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Greg Hutchins: Okay, great well, thank you very much, so we got into the future work about oh shucks 25 years ago i’m an engineer.

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Greg Hutchins: And we brought somebody at the portland I was basically chairing a Economic Development Committee.

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Greg Hutchins: Intel at that time was bringing in a lot of fabrication shops into the portland area portland Oregon the FABs basically makes silicon chips, and we need a speaker for our Friday program and there was a guy out there called Gordon Moore one of the founders.

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Jason Mefford: Oh yeah one of the founders of Intel.

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Greg Hutchins: Absolutely, and you know he basically came up with this idea of moore’s law yep moore’s law basically it’s pretty simple.

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Greg Hutchins: If you got a chip is going to double and speed every two years or it’s going to cost half as much.

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Greg Hutchins: And we were wondering as an engineer, is there a human element, Sir, is there a a people component to that, in other words, do we be marketable functional as engineers, do we need to basically retrain ourselves in education or skills or an aptitudes and the question is there’s a half life.

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Greg Hutchins: In product development, meeting the knowledge in the field doubles in so many years, so if we say four years as a half play that basically means that.

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Greg Hutchins: The amount of information that might have knowledge, the amount of data and that fields is going to double in four years and then four years again it’s going to double so let’s say that i’m an engineer, and I graduated 2226 knowledge is double i’m 30 knowledge is doubled again.

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Jason Mefford: So, since I graduated and it’s compounding to it’s not just double double its compounding.

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Greg Hutchins: Right absolutely that’s a great point, am I still marketable by the time i’m 30 Am I still well somebody still want me if I haven’t gotten back and gotten some skills some some new technologies, under my belt.

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Greg Hutchins: That was the assumption and Gordon thought about it for a second and said yeah absolutely.

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Greg Hutchins: All engineers are techie workers.

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Greg Hutchins: one form or another, so let’s fast forward to the present the big thing right now is we’re all technical workers so one form or another doesn’t matter if you’re a nurse.

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Greg Hutchins: If you’re a doctor an engineer an auditor knowledge in your field is going to double could be eight years, it could be four years.

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Greg Hutchins: If you’re in the bleeding edge discipline like artificial intelligence it’s going to double every year and question is, if you don’t retread me go back to school, if you don’t update your skills, if you don’t become current are you going to be functionally illiterate.

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Greg Hutchins: and potentially not marketable that’s The big question that drove us.

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Jason Mefford: Well it’s interesting.

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Jason Mefford: You bring that up because I remember you know it was, I think it was a study that IBM did where it where it was talking about, you know that, with the doubling of knowledge.

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Jason Mefford: yep and you know it for a long time, I mean it was they went back to like the beginning of the human epoch of history kind of thing right and it’s.

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Jason Mefford: Like.

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Jason Mefford: It took 20,000 years you know to double but, from that point on it’s just gotten faster and faster and faster and so.

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Jason Mefford: You know I think even like with moore’s law, you know when Gordon came up with this 25 3040 years ago it was every two years, every 18 months, but I think even in that space it’s sped up quicker than that.

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Jason Mefford: And I think you’re seeing the same thing right from a technical workers standpoint.

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Jason Mefford: it’s speeding up you’re lucky if it’s only going, like every four or five years.

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Jason Mefford: Most likely it’s quicker quicker than that for most people.

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Greg Hutchins: And the fact is now all of us work with technology in one form or another.

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Greg Hutchins: yep so before it applied to engineers, but since we’re all technical workers in one form or another is going to impact, all of us.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and it’s interesting because you know so here’s another like real life thing.

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Greg Hutchins: You know my heard about attorneys is you know anytime that you go into like discovery.

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Jason Mefford: They gotta they gotta weed through you know boxes and boxes and boxes of stuff a lot of the cost of litigation is is this discovery phase.

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Jason Mefford: And i’ve heard that even some law firms now are using Ai to replace the people and they can actually chump through all of this digitized data much quicker and more accurately.

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Jason Mefford: than the attorneys good, and so, even when you take something, you know that seems Okay, yes it’s technical, but you always think of an attorney is like more like you know I don’t know hands on personal human kind of connection that’s even going away right.

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Greg Hutchins: Well, he just got well that’s a good point so a lawyer for a big firm is going to run you 600 bucks an hour.

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Greg Hutchins: that’s not partner level that’s a senior.

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Jason Mefford: Basically, sorry there’s going to be 1000 to 15 an hour.

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Greg Hutchins: That directly right.

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Greg Hutchins: yeah and when I mentioned that in my podcasts people say none of that nobody makes 1500 bucks an hour, yes, they do.

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Okay.

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Greg Hutchins: And what’s happening is $600 an hour lawyers legions of them coming out of school basically.

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Greg Hutchins: are going to be doing this discovery.

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Greg Hutchins: You can get an Ai once you digitize all the data and Ai product can do that faster better and cheaper and 600 not one i’m talking about 10 or 20 years.

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Greg Hutchins: And they call it a discovery so that’s one example, a lawyer might go and litigate but what happens if that lawyer does eat litigation, you know.

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Greg Hutchins: Electronic litigate.

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Greg Hutchins: yeah.

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Jason Mefford: I mean it could come to the point right where we’re in the future there’s like some Ai judge who knows.

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Jason Mefford: Both sides are arguing their case electronically I don’t know I mean it could get there, I mean science fiction, you know again if you go back to the 50s and 60s when SCI fi first started or like.

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Jason Mefford: You know okay go back and watch star trek like the first version of star trek.

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Greg Hutchins: And the 70 I know.

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Jason Mefford: 6767 yeah.

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Greg Hutchins: The.

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Jason Mefford: The technology from there we’ve surpassed that already right, so what used to be science fiction is now science faction.

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Jason Mefford: And we’re actually living with it right.

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Jason Mefford: wow so So how have you I guess let’s let’s try to you know relate this back back to people.

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Jason Mefford: As well right because, again, I mean I want people to walk away with okay Well, this is nice moore’s law blah blah blah blah blah, but how does this actually.

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Jason Mefford: affect me, and I think you’ve you’ve kind of seen it from your profession from the engineer side i’ve been seeing it from my side you know the risk managers, the auditors, the accountants.

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Jason Mefford: But you know what does this actually mean for real human beings what How is this going to impact them what do they need to do so that they don’t just get outsourced to a machine.

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Greg Hutchins: Well here’s the thing that’s scary with these machines these machines used to be what you programmed in would be what you’d program out, what do you come out.

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Greg Hutchins: These machines now are becoming smart, so I post a question every time I give these talks about a siri product or a smartphone.

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Greg Hutchins: And three years could be less that smartphone you carry is going to have all the information in your profession it’s going to be able to do data searches it’s going to be able to.

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Greg Hutchins: Find precedent it’s going to be able to do E discovery it’s going to be able to do, risk analysis.

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Greg Hutchins: it’s going to be able to do accounting analysis, you know figure out piano it’s going to be able to do a lot of work and what’s going to happen is that machine is going to have risk based Problem Solving and risk based decision making smarts into the machine.

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Greg Hutchins: And the big challenge for us all work is this a matter of which field, I mean even laying bricks now they have Ai robots laying bricks.

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Greg Hutchins: Think about a smartphone.

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Greg Hutchins: That you’re going to be working with in three years that’s going to be able to make decisions and solve problems, based upon historical knowledge.

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Greg Hutchins: quicker better and faster than you that’s a challenge, and the question is, what are the protocols, what are the rules of engagement between us people and that machine that’s going to be right next to you.

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Greg Hutchins: Well, as they’re all yeah.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well and I remember you know Warren bennis used to be a professor at usc like.

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Jason Mefford: yep Alma mater for my masters right, but he I remember he.

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Jason Mefford: He said, you know, in the future, factories, because I have a manufacturing background the map, but but factories will be made up of three things, it will be a machine, it will be a man, and it will be a dog.

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Jason Mefford: And the machine does the work.

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Jason Mefford: The man is there to watch and make sure the machine is working.

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Jason Mefford: And the dog is there to make sure the man does not touch the machine.

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Jason Mefford: Right, and you know when he said that I don’t know 20 or 30 years ago it was kind of funny but now it’s almost like my gosh how far away, are we.

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Jason Mefford: From that right, because I know, in my experience from manufacturing, I mean I saw pictures from 50 years ago where we would literally have like 2000 people.

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Jason Mefford: Doing stuff in a factory now that same factory only has 50 or 100 people, because the machines doing everything that the people used to do.

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Greg Hutchins: And now we thought as knowledge workers, we were pretty protected, because we had discipline specific we had functional specific we had location specific information and we had the skills for problem solving decision making, now a lot of that is being taken away from us, unfortunately.

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Greg Hutchins: And every company now is developing these smart whatever we want to call them a robot is essentially a machine.

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Greg Hutchins: siri is a machine, what are we going to do when we have a smart work siri or alexa, what are the rules of engagement, what are you know what are our responsibilities in the machines responsibilities.

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Greg Hutchins: What are the expectations.

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Greg Hutchins: From employer or the machine.

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Jason Mefford: that’s.

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Greg Hutchins: scary and it’s happening very.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and I think you know, especially you know some of us like you and me that have been kind of geeky techie nerdy about this stuff for a while.

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Jason Mefford: You know we’ve been kind of seeing it coming, but I think especially this last year with things totally getting turned upside down.

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Jason Mefford: And now, companies are starting to you know reassess their their whole go to market the you know how what they’re what they’re doing the goods or services that they’re providing.

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Jason Mefford: And in like you said, I mean some stuff I I grew up the son of a contractor right and I never would have thought that houses could be built by machines, but i’ve watched like a 3D printed house get made in one day right, I mean so it’s like.

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Jason Mefford: You know, come companies are looking at this now right so have we just really kind of pushed up what was inevitable, but maybe was out 10 or 20 years and we just pushed that up and accelerated it even more now because of what we’ve gone through this last year.

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Greg Hutchins: I think, so this coven is just simply been makes makes all of us me as an individual me as a company, whatever we do i’ve been forced to assess or reassess everything our work, our products, our assumptions our business model.

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Greg Hutchins: What we outsource when we in source manufacturers on reevaluating the classic maker by decision from 30 years ago.

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Greg Hutchins: yep everything is being reassessed.

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Greg Hutchins: And you know, unfortunately, there aren’t that many models, I mean this quite frankly we haven’t had a pandemic in almost 100 years.

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Jason Mefford: yeah none of us remember the old one.

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Greg Hutchins: Nobody yeah we don’t remember the old one, obviously.

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Greg Hutchins: Companies I think all over the world are looking at work, looking at life through a new new filter and that filter is going to be risk based.

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Greg Hutchins: The yeah i’m sorry I was about to interrupt go ahead.

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Jason Mefford: No, I was just going to say, because one of the points that you made that I think is, I just want to reiterate, with people because.

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Jason Mefford: Again i’m not trying to scare the hell out of everybody, but I am trying to scare the hell out of you, in some ways right that, but you brought up, you said you know knowledge workers thought they were safe.

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Jason Mefford: And I think that is a common belief that most people have right like you know when when I went to college.

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Jason Mefford: I got an accounting degree well Why did I get an accounting degree it’s, not because I love doing debits and credits and wanted to be a bookkeeper.

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Jason Mefford: From a practical perspective right hey with an accounting degree i’d always be able to fall back on something and always be able to get a job.

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Jason Mefford: But I don’t know if that’s true anymore right because, again, just like we saw you know traditional bookkeepers the people were in the green visors know rooms and rooms of people posting to ledger’s are no more, because now that computer does it.

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Jason Mefford: Now we have financial analysts, but again, if you can teach the computer how to do all of that decision making, then again those jobs could kind of go away right.

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Jason Mefford: So so we’re not safe so that’s why we’re having this discussion, but again, you said everybody’s going to be looking more for risk based so maybe kind of talk a little bit about that, what do you mean by that How does that kind of show up.

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Greg Hutchins: As an interesting point.

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Greg Hutchins: We we’re our firm is a bunch of geeks we do we’re a quantitative shop we do analytics.

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Greg Hutchins: Specifically, we do SIP critical in first Infrastructure Protection forensics assurance and analytics like we mentioned that fork nerc type of connection.

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Greg Hutchins: And we’re finding that for our field, which is very niche he said engineering risk type of field.

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Greg Hutchins: The prism the filter the lens that we looked at all of our work was through risk now I think everybody because of Kobe is looking at life.

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Greg Hutchins: is looking at work through that less risk lens django shot, if I had my inoculation should I work love, should I have a mass color Should I be there, what type what hmm I.

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Greg Hutchins: Just simply living and working now risk is becoming much more personal to all of us.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and I think it’s interesting because, as you say that you know you and I have been dealing with risk management things for.

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Jason Mefford: Decades right.

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Jason Mefford: But but it’s funny, especially since 2008 2009 That was the big you know when we had that banking crisis, the recession, at that point.

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Jason Mefford: It woke people up to this whole idea of risk.

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Jason Mefford: management or maybe more formalized of using certain terms calling it risk and what’s been funny is.

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Jason Mefford: At the word risk, you can see, regular people using that word much more now.

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Jason Mefford: than they ever did and again, you know, like like this last year, especially because people are.

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Jason Mefford: are looking at the risks are trying to you know mitigate the risks of getting coven so you know you wipe down you wear a mask you were the hand sanitizer your wash your hands 20 times a day right.

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Jason Mefford: But, but even the carry over because you know i’m an American football fan, and I remember you know, I was watching I think it’s a show called hard knocks and.

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Jason Mefford: They were doing some effort, it was it was this last season, where they were talking about the rams which is my team and the chargers because they’re both here in La.

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Jason Mefford: And I remember the coach on the vein of the rams as they were interviewing and were there were different, you know snippets he was using the word risk a lot.

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Jason Mefford: You know, more so than I would have expected in that profession even and, yes, I mean that’s what they’re.

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Jason Mefford: they’re trying to reduce risk right there they’re trying to move the ball down the field they’re trying to understand what what, what are the likely risks what’s the Defense going to do to stop the play that we’re going to have.

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Jason Mefford: that’s all.

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Jason Mefford: Normal, but the fact that he’s actually using the word risk and I hear people outside of the risk management profession, using the word risk so much more I guess that probably means all of us need to understand risk better as well right.

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Greg Hutchins: Well, when they look at Ai so we’ve over the last five years, actually we’ve been involved with Ai for about 30 years Ai is not in you discipline is no.

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Greg Hutchins: yeah, the only thing that’s changed is the machines processing power is much faster and they’ve gotten a little bit smarter, but the idea has been around for 30 years well actually probably 50 years.

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Greg Hutchins: Well it’s scary now, but this whole area is that the machines are getting smarter.

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Greg Hutchins: they’re getting proactive.

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Greg Hutchins: repetitive predictive and now even preemptive.

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Greg Hutchins: So those four P that used to be the distinguishing characteristics of knowledge workers now those machines have.

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Greg Hutchins: And the question is when those machines have it, what do we bring to the table used to be, what did the machine bring the table to support us as decision makers, or as knowledge workers now the machines have that and we, or whoever is.

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Greg Hutchins: doing some work they’ve got to sort of understand how are they going to work cooperatively is it you know with the with the smart objects, you know and smart machines.

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Greg Hutchins: And that’s going to require some type of training.

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Greg Hutchins: and possibly developing some embarrassing numerical type skills learning to code learning to read code learning to.

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Greg Hutchins: learning how to automate processes which we don’t want to do sometimes because they can basically change our basic work function.

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Greg Hutchins: yep the classic example we’ve seen is a number of workers that we’ve seen will bring in machines and they’re given say a 20% bump for six months, and all of a sudden that machine that Ai product takes over a lot of that person’s function, all of a sudden, a department is happening sized.

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You know.

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Greg Hutchins: And that’s frankly very scary for a lot of folks so was it would be for me.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well, and so what i’m kind of hearing, then I guess is this, and this is probably true for everyone right is that.

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Jason Mefford: More and more of our jobs are technology dependent right, so one thing I remember one thing that we’d said before, is hey.

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Jason Mefford: You know there used to be this big split in auditing we’ll just use that as as an example right.

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Jason Mefford: Well there’s financial auditors there’s operational auditors there’s it auditors okay that’s how it was kind of used to be kind of segregated.

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Jason Mefford: And now we kind of joke that know every auditor has to have a basic knowledge of it to audit because it goes through.

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Jason Mefford: Everything right and so even your example of hey maybe one of the skills that we need is to actually learn how to code.

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Jason Mefford: Right, you know again there’s different languages or other stuff like that, but it’s it’s no different if we use an analogy of you know, we went from typewriters clink clink clink clink clink clink clink typewriters to word processors.

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Jason Mefford: Right so so we had to make that transition, we had to understand.

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Jason Mefford: How to use computers, how to use word processing programs that was just a normal evolution.

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Jason Mefford: Of the workforce.

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Jason Mefford: And we’re going to be seeing more and more of those kind of things i’m guessing again from a technical perspective we’re going to have to all.

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Jason Mefford: become more familiar and more comfortable with technology in general, at least that’s one thing I know there’s some other things that i’m sure we’re going to talk about here in just a minute, but that that’s probably one thing that people really need to scale up on.

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Greg Hutchins: I eat.

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Greg Hutchins: Over a bunch of years i’ve written about 30 books and I started with a typewriter, then I moved to the word processor now I use.

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Greg Hutchins: voice recognition to.

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Greg Hutchins: addicted exactly.

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Jason Mefford: You know just funny because that’s an older technology that we used to do right we used to dictate.

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Jason Mefford: For people to use the the the typewriter type it out.

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Greg Hutchins: And the voice recognition was about 90% accurate when I started now the voice recognition, not for recognition systems, but voice transcription.

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Greg Hutchins: that’s a major difference in language voice transcription is 99.5% accurate.

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Greg Hutchins: Think about that.

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Greg Hutchins: So I dictate my book, and I begin it basically frame it afterwards chop this move this you know, anyway, you get the idea.

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Greg Hutchins: Book writing is changed for me it’s just simply talk in front of a computer or.

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Greg Hutchins: You know, some type of smart program and we’re going to see that, with everything unfortunately and auditing.

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Greg Hutchins: Where you folks meaning internal auditors left off with be the technology part the computer systems, the cyber security, the supply chain operations that was our function now internal auditors are doing that same function because they’ve been expanded their domain.

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Greg Hutchins: The CPA firm now is developing new standards for doing supply chain audits they’re developing new standards for.

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Greg Hutchins: For almost everything, so a lot of what we would call functional areas like engineering are morphing together you don’t find simply mechanical engineer anymore you’re finding an engineer, who knows mechanical industrial manufacturing.

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Greg Hutchins: Cyber anyway, you get the idea and that’s happening in all functions, including internal auditing so simple you know start simply anymore CPA or CIA its cyber operations and supply chain at a minimum and it obviously yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Well it’s interesting because, as you as you talk about that you know historically university education used to be liberal arts was the general right, so you go you learn.

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Jason Mefford: A little bit about a lot of stuff so that you’re very broad in your knowledge and that helps you view the world differently right helps you make better decisions as a manager blah blah blah blah blah all those kind of.

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Greg Hutchins: Things.

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Jason Mefford: Right so so up until I don’t know exactly the timing, but it was probably maybe 50 years ago.

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Jason Mefford: When the traditional liberal arts university degrees switched to becoming more technical and so, even though you’re getting a university degree now it’s very similar to to what trade schools used to do.

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Jason Mefford: Right now, they give you a little bit that’s what that’s what your prerequisites are right oh you got to take a history class you got to take an art class and.

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Jason Mefford: And then the rest of your three and a half years is going to be technical about, whatever your topic is.

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Jason Mefford: And it sounds like you know, again as you’re talking there, maybe the old liberal arts or that broader understanding because, like you said you can’t just be good at one particular thing you need to know a little bit about a lot of different things today.

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Greg Hutchins: Absolutely absolutely Jason and the question is, it was interesting bureau of Labor standards that’s a US federal agency, used to say you’re going to have so many jobs over your lifetime.

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Greg Hutchins: Every two or three years you’re going to have a new job now their mantra is you’re going to have a new career every three to four years, not job any longer career.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and that and to have a completely new career means having to get some continuing professional education get some sort of certification.

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Jason Mefford: Go back and maybe get another university degree, I mean all these different things you know and again again because I like to tell people books are great I love books, I read a lot of books.

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Jason Mefford: But a book.

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Jason Mefford: By itself doesn’t prove anything to anybody you can’t put I read 15 books last year on your resume.

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Jason Mefford: But you can put a certification, you can put training courses university degrees, those are things that actually can be career capital.

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Jason Mefford: If you will that you can put on right, so we all need to go back and do that I kind of joke, with people because.

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Jason Mefford: Especially in a lot of the technical areas, you have to get 40 hours of CP a year, I think it might be the same true in the engineering side right and I tell people look don’t need 40 you need 400 hours probably a year now, and if you’re only doing the 40 you’re getting behind.

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Greg Hutchins: Yes, i’ve been true even on your side to.

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Greg Hutchins: Absolutely, so this is a good time for your plug for your company you’re doing the right thing in terms of reforming and reshaping your company to certifications yeah.

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Greg Hutchins: Because we’re going to see people instead of having a four year college degree, having 10 maybe even 20 certifications initials after their name and that’s going to have the same type of cachet.

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Greg Hutchins: To enhance their brand equity, so you say brand capital I would use the word brand equity.

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Jason Mefford: brand equity.

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Greg Hutchins: And we’re going to have that portal portable brand equity moving from job to job to job.

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Jason Mefford: Well, that and of course we.

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Greg Hutchins: hope that.

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Jason Mefford: That is one of the reasons why we’re doing it because, again I i’ve been seeing this coming for a long time.

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Jason Mefford: You know, as being a hiring manager for many years as well.

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Greg Hutchins: Right mm hmm.

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Jason Mefford: Having things like that on somebody’s linkedin profile or on their resume helped me to sort out.

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Jason Mefford: Who, it was going to be right, but again it’s like it’s like you’re saying you know if we have to have let’s say five or six different you know.

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Jason Mefford: Knowledge areas that we need to know about you’re not going to go back and get five or six university degrees are you kidding me 20 years.

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Jason Mefford: To do that right, you also don’t have years of doing archaic kind of certifications the way that they’ve been done and that’s why there’s been such a proliferation of these new, modern certifications as well.

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Jason Mefford: Is because you don’t have five years to get a certification right you you’ve gotta you gotta do something quicker, because you can’t wait five years to get your next job your jobs, probably going to go away and five years before you can even get it.

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Greg Hutchins: Well it’s interesting.

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Greg Hutchins: So this goes back to the value exchange between higher ED.

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Greg Hutchins: And a certification program like you would offer.

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Greg Hutchins: A student in accounting internal audit risk management can go to jason’s certificate programs or certification programs and glue these things together to get the knowledge that somebody needs or the employer needs right now.

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Greg Hutchins: So I was reading an article about Columbia in New York City.

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Greg Hutchins: They have a program 65,000 a year, including 20,000 a year to live in the city.

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Greg Hutchins: Columbia on the upper East side is you know it’s running 65 K, a year 20 K to live in New York that’s 85 K post after taxes right essentially.

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Greg Hutchins: So mean you’re privileged or whatever the current term is what’s the Roi of that a four years I don’t like four times at 85 is but.

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Jason Mefford: For a lot of money.

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Greg Hutchins: Right exactly what’s the Roi of that compared to jason’s program in I a or risk or county.

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Greg Hutchins: Employers are going to be looking at.

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Greg Hutchins: People a lot more differently in you know, in terms of assets that value add what they can do.

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Greg Hutchins: I mean i’ve talked to my daughter she’s going to be applying for jobs against people who have degrees from name, schools and quite honestly employer is going to come up to that.

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Greg Hutchins: person in artificial intelligence or computer science and say here’s a problem you’ve got one hour give me your methodology, give me your assumptions give me your.

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Greg Hutchins: Your flow chart give me your thinking in terms of how would you solve that problem now it comes by they look at it, they say you just pass the first part of the test the second part will be put all this done in the program give me some script.

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Greg Hutchins: And if you’re applying to Google Amazon, by the way they only take about one out of every hundred applicants and software.

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Greg Hutchins: they’re not going to be looking at your solution in terms of yeah it does the job they’re going to be looking at your solution, meaning in the script in terms of how elegant it is how simple it is and how unique it is.

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Greg Hutchins: And at that time doesn’t matter if you went to portland Community college or Stanford or Berkeley in computer science, the person who can answer that question is obviously going to get the job.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and that’s that’s an interesting point that you bring up because you know.

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Jason Mefford: Again, for so long, it used to be hey if I go to Harvard if I go to Stanford if I go to Yale whatever it is, you know pick pick any of the top hundred universities out there.

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Jason Mefford: If I go and I get a degree, I got the pigskin hanging on the wall that name going to get me the job right, but then that that was always the the intention that’s why people spend 400 grand going to do undergrad work right because that’s supposed to get them a job.

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Jason Mefford: But like you said employers have changed how they’re hiring right so that it’s not just yeah you have to have certain things on your resume or on your linkedin profile, because if you don’t have some of the minimum things you’re not even getting get an interview.

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Jason Mefford: that’s true but, once you get the interview you’re going to actually have to show them that you know how to do it.

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Jason Mefford: right because it’s like I remember you know, Google, for a long time has had have these crazy kind of interview questions you know I remember one of them was if you’re a dime at the bottom of a blender and the blenders you know starts, how do you get out of the blender.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t know I guess i’m not getting that no right.

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Jason Mefford: Or you know they’ll do things like that, or like you’re saying actually make you write some computer code come up with a little program to try to actually help solve that.

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Jason Mefford: That problem so it’s you got it you got to get in the door by having some of the certifications or degrees or other things.

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Jason Mefford: That you know you’re well rounded you do have a basic understanding of some of these things, but then you’re going to have to prove yourself as well.

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Greg Hutchins: and quickly.

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Greg Hutchins: yeah and.

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Greg Hutchins: So can I do a quick story of something that came up in your in the UK, this week.

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yeah.

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Greg Hutchins: So, in the end of the UK there’s something called what we would call the AFL CIO equivalent it called the trade union organization.

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Greg Hutchins: And they’ve made it a big deal with Boris Johnson to say we don’t want machines to hire be able to hire people.

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Greg Hutchins: And the thing that, and the reason why the BBC made a big deal about it this week is because those machines now are hiring people.

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Greg Hutchins: Face unseen sight unseen and to they’re promoting them and firing them.

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Greg Hutchins: All automated.

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Greg Hutchins: And the trade up to the UK was just simply up in arms, I was such a big deal with Boris Johnson, you know the pm, the Prime Minister and with the media that the BBC had a whole bunch of programs and articles about it, everybody did in the UK.

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Greg Hutchins: And that’s just simply a front end indicator that this now it’s going to become a public policy issue.

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Greg Hutchins: How do we keep people employed.

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Greg Hutchins: And employable throughout their lifetime, this is a big deal right now with President Biden.

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Greg Hutchins: he’s picking infrastructure he’s pushing.

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Greg Hutchins: You know, domestic.

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Greg Hutchins: You know less less less outsourcing and more domestic production why high priced work for people so suddenly becoming an individual issues becoming a major global public policy issue.

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Jason Mefford: yeah cuz it’s interesting as we, as we weave through this it is it’s going to take a lot of twists and turns right and that’s why things like UPI universal basic income.

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Jason Mefford: Other things like that are coming up from a political scene as well, so and I know I could keep going on and talk to you for two or three hours about this and geek out but.

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Jason Mefford: we’re gonna have to kind of wrap it up a little bit for the podcasters this week, but you know, probably need to have you back again but.

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Jason Mefford: You know I mean really, really interesting stuff Greg because, like you said, I mean that’s why, when I met you and it’s like we’re.

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Jason Mefford: we’re coming at we’re seeing the same problem and trying to help it but we’re coming from completely different industries, but this this stuff is real.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s and it’s gotten pushed up so much quicker right that, again, I mean maybe if we can do.

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Jason Mefford: kind of a few few takeaways for people here at the end, but I know some of the stuff we talked about is you know look if you’re really technical in one area.

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Jason Mefford: You probably need to branch out right, you need to you need to be technical or at least have a basic understanding and lots of different areas now and kind of create.

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Jason Mefford: Your portfolio, if you will, to help you be successful versus somebody else right because the old days of all you used to work for a big for.

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Jason Mefford: Audit firm so sure i’ll hire you as an auditor now it’s like no, I want to see that you understand agile auditing and I want to see some basic data analytic skills and I want to see some.

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Jason Mefford: Right, maybe there’s five or six different things that you’re going to need to have to succeed, so it seems like that’s one.

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Jason Mefford: That we’ve been talking about start getting some broader exposure some broader certifications other stuff outside of your very.

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Jason Mefford: Narrow niche but what what would be some other things for people to start considering or thinking so that they can not have this tidal wave hit him in the back of the head.

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Greg Hutchins: that’s good point I think the first thing within we started this project called the future professions.

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Greg Hutchins: Looking at, and you can visit future professions calm and the idea is every profession is going to change some now slowly some of our going to change very rapidly.

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Greg Hutchins: Look at your profession, look at your skill set develop a ledger sheet, so to speak up skills, you have or skills, you need to have.

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Greg Hutchins: And if.

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Greg Hutchins: you’re brave enough go to your significant others your friends your boss, and say, I want to update my skills, what do I need to do to get that promotion to get that that salary increase and do a 360 evaluation with your significant other with your bosses in your friends.

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Greg Hutchins: Because change is going to happen in every profession understand what’s going to happen and jump in front of that curve that change curve.

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Greg Hutchins: Because, at the end of the day I don’t think your employer is going to look out for you, you have to look out for yourself.

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Jason Mefford: that’s probably the biggest takeaway is you you’ve got to take care of yourself.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, right and that’s why I think I mean we talked about you know, like that Columbia program you’re talking about.

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yeah.

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Jason Mefford: yeah 400 grand it’s gonna take you a lot of years to get that back, but you know, especially some of these certification things that are out there, you know, again, would you invest 2000 $5,000 if it means that your next job you get a 1020 $30,000 a year raise right.

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Greg Hutchins: slowly.

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Jason Mefford: And so again you’ve got to start looking at yourself, you know we’ve been talking for a long time about the knowledge economy.

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Jason Mefford: But if you’re your best asset, how much capital improvement are you doing in your asset right are you just letting the factory rest away.

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Jason Mefford: Or you actually investing and getting more knowledge getting more certifications getting other stuff that’s going to help you, and it does translate really fairly quickly into significant bump in in salary for people.

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Greg Hutchins: Absolutely Jason think of it this way things are changing well until it and certainly complex complexity and ambiguity fuca and standing still in a moving stream means you’re going backwards.

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Greg Hutchins: You got to basically go with a stream actually get in front of everything see where the rocks are and think of it as sort of a of individual risk analysis, these are all the objectives you want to get to look at all the hindrances obstacles or.

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Greg Hutchins: or things that are in your way.

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Greg Hutchins: And then do a risk analysis with your career it’s tough it’s very, very hard, especially if you bring other people like your significant other or your boss into that loop.

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Greg Hutchins: But you’re essentially investing in yourself your brand equity and think of it as sort of a capital expenditure you’re not going to be able to increase production or increase your personal out, but unless you invest in yourself that’s The bottom line.

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Jason Mefford: Well, it is and.

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Jason Mefford: I like I like how you use that you know so everybody go out start doing an individual risk assessment on your career.

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Jason Mefford: You know, but again don’t just don’t just look at what is it going to take me to invest do it like you would do an Roi calculation for your business right hey Ryan.

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Jason Mefford: If I invest $5,000 in a couple months right to get some new certification to learn to take a coding class or whatever it is, what is that going to mean for me on the reward side, and if the answer is hey I can I can you know move laterally or I can I can move to a different profession.

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Jason Mefford: You know and earn 2040 50,000 a year more.

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Jason Mefford: And that’s realistic for a lot of people.

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Jason Mefford: I mean there’s there’s certain career bumps that when you move it’s like 50 grand phones.

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Jason Mefford: And i’ll tell you 50 grand a year in your pocket that’s a big difference in lifestyle for most people.

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Greg Hutchins: You have to be willing to do that capital.

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Jason Mefford: Expenditure investment, as you said, up front you’re not going to get the 50 and let’s just spend the two or five.

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Greg Hutchins: that’s exactly right and that’s the cost of certification yeah the differences in said again that certification every five years.

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Greg Hutchins: or getting PDA ages or professional development hours you’re going to be doing that you’re really not quarterly that’s the big difference now you’ve got to look out for number one.

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Jason Mefford: Great stuff Greg great stuff, thank you for coming on.

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Greg Hutchins: Thank you appreciate it.

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Jason Mefford: I love.

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Jason Mefford: talking to you about this because, again, I mean i’ve I mean like you said, I mean it’s one of the reasons why I do what I do is.

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Jason Mefford: i’ve been seeing this coming for a while and I don’t want people to get you know slapped in the back of the head when the tidal wave comes I want you to already have your boat.

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Jason Mefford: In the water paddling you know before this ends up coming and like you said, I think you know from all the stuff that we’ve talked about it’s just coming quicker.

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Jason Mefford: than we’ve been anticipated before so do what you can start thinking about it find those gaps and actually do something so that you can jump in front of the curve, instead of getting slammed by the curve when it comes.

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Greg Hutchins: So let me finish with one metaphor Jason instead of being in a rowboat you want to be in a fast speedy cigarette boat with 1000 horsepower in the back, and I think your certifications are going to help people get to where they want to be go yeah.

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Jason Mefford: yeah thanks I usually I tend to go back to the old arcade so but you’re right, it should be one of those thousand thousand horsepower and jet jet boats that you’re going not even just just even a robo.

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Jason Mefford: Because when people are getting in the robot you want to be getting in the speedboat so.

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Greg Hutchins: yeah yeah it’s the same idea same metaphor Hello.

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Greg Hutchins: Football horses of the back, you know.

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Jason Mefford: it’s better to have the horses in the back, instead of the horses in the front with the.

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Jason Mefford: buggy to I guess.

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Greg Hutchins: i’ve been in both places Jason I rather have a bit the back pushes me see.

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Jason Mefford: it’s better in the back well Greg thanks again for taking time today and, like you said, I mean you made you made reference to the future of professions.com.

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Jason Mefford: You know, as a website where you guys have some stuff out there that you’ve been doing so again another thing you can do this week go check it out.

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Jason Mefford: I mean go start seeing again don’t don’t take my word for it don’t take greg’s word for it.

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Jason Mefford: Even just do a couple of Google searches and you’re going to realize holy shit these guys are actually talking about something that’s really happening, but whatever you do just start doing something don’t stand in that moving stream and get left behind.

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Greg Hutchins: Can I plug my book.

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Jason Mefford: You can yeah Oh, because that is you’re still working on it, this is, this is one just came out.

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Greg Hutchins: it’s the one that just came out so working it’s disruption rules covert edition.

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Greg Hutchins: came out about three weeks ago check it out on Amazon it’s fairly cheap reviews are fives fortunately knock on was, I know I can like forehead and jason’s getting his copy this afternoon, so, hopefully, you can even give him give a review online.

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Jason Mefford: or no, I will I made yet and yeah well we’ll plan to include links to both of these in the show notes down below as well, so again if you’re a listener that usually doesn’t look at the show notes, if you want him there down below in the show notes.

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Jason Mefford: If he if you don’t see him in the podcast player check my website because there’ll be on the blog post down below as well, so a couple of good resources things for you to actually do this week so go out and do them.

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Greg Hutchins: Absolutely and we’ll.

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Jason Mefford: we’ll catch y’all on the next episode of jamming with Jason have a great rest of your week.

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Greg Hutchins: hey terrific thanks a lot for having us take care bye bye.

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